In my opion many of the recent inccidents and accidents are nothing to do with previous accidents not getting reported(although i think they should be) but with the competition culture that has emerged in recent times.
It seems to me that no one is happy to fly anymore unless it moves them a place up the league table, and this is leading to people pushing well beyond their flying ability and experience.
Cross Country flights will come as a natural progression with experience and skill.
I think we could all do well to take a step back and ask what we are looking for out of the sport.
For me the simple thrill of flying has always been enough and I have no delusions of ever becoming a ''Sky God'' yet i found my self only lasts year being sucked in to the very mentallity im critiscicing here.
I therefore propose that we set up a section on our Website where flights can be logged without automaticly being enterd into a league.
Any thoughts.
Paul
Further Safety Thoughts !
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myerscouse
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Further Safety Thoughts !
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gary stenhouse
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it is true thatt it has become more about xc than flying yet realy the fun an the camoaderiw is the best thing you can have in free flying.
there is so much judged on how good you must be if you can fly a 100k yet you could actualy be a crap pilot.
the best pilot is the one having the most fun and going home happy wth your days flying no matter what that is.
there is so much judged on how good you must be if you can fly a 100k yet you could actualy be a crap pilot.
the best pilot is the one having the most fun and going home happy wth your days flying no matter what that is.
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colin keightley
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I was aproached and asked if flights can be made private but i dont think they can. However GPS dump can greate google earth files which gives you all the info the league does except the graphs I will eventually do this talk.
If Acro was easy they'd call it Cross Country
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Some valid points Paul - Though I do believe going on an xc in many ways keeps you safer, because if you are going to be successful you need to keep a very close eye on the changing environment.
However the competititive bug which has begun to take hold can mean that sometimes rash decisions are made for what is in reality of very little gain.
Fly with a purpose but maintain your vigilance to the dangers.
However the competititive bug which has begun to take hold can mean that sometimes rash decisions are made for what is in reality of very little gain.
Fly with a purpose but maintain your vigilance to the dangers.
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John Watson
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you can stick the competition, just enjoy your flying as Paul says 
.
A good point Paul - at the end of the day competitivness comes from within the individual, we must all be responsible to ourselves!
Another factor may be that the Northumbrians tend to have to drive long distances to sites and tend to arrive with a very strong 'can-do' attitude, perhaps fuelled more by a simplefrustration and desire to fly rather than to actually win or compete.
After all very few of these incidents have actually been on XCs.
Personally my pet hate is PGs & strong winds.
Another factor may be that the Northumbrians tend to have to drive long distances to sites and tend to arrive with a very strong 'can-do' attitude, perhaps fuelled more by a simplefrustration and desire to fly rather than to actually win or compete.
After all very few of these incidents have actually been on XCs.
Personally my pet hate is PGs & strong winds.
Spot on Paul!
I have said to a couple of members over the past few days that there does appear to be an "xc or bust" type mentality that has been creeping into the club recently.
I dont think this has in any way been deliberate, just innocent comments and posts made by people, which on their own are innocous, but which when taken together give rise to the urge for people to perhaps push themselves just a little to far.
As Gary says, the saying that the Best Pilot is the one who is having the most fun is totally correct.
After all, this is supposed to be fun!
I have said to a couple of members over the past few days that there does appear to be an "xc or bust" type mentality that has been creeping into the club recently.
I dont think this has in any way been deliberate, just innocent comments and posts made by people, which on their own are innocous, but which when taken together give rise to the urge for people to perhaps push themselves just a little to far.
As Gary says, the saying that the Best Pilot is the one who is having the most fun is totally correct.
After all, this is supposed to be fun!
It is sad to measure your life in terms of hours flown...... but even sadder not to.........
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Pete Batey
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Phew, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this way. Personally I'm just happy to get to base and bimble aimlessly from cloud to cloud. It's often a pain in the @ss to go xc on a hang glider. Landing by the car and being home for tea usually puts a bigger smile on my face - but I am an old 
Pete
Pete
Sometimes you've got to dance when the music's no good.
Is this because fatty is not on the happy bus no more to laugh in the face of any talk of serious competition?gary stenhouse wrote:it is true thatt it has become more about xc than flying yet realy the fun an the camoaderiw is the best thing you can have in free flying.
The winners are those that go out, have a good crack, piss yourself laughing at least once, then maybe a pint and a nose bag before going home. Now thats camoaderiw!
Next time your out with the groovy gang Gaz, ring me, I could do with a day out.
Everything in moderation, including moderation.
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John Wallis
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I'm not convinced the recent accidents have anything to do with people wanting to fly XC or the competitive element ( Although I do hear what you are saying Paul) I think it's been more down to the recent met conditions which have been very unstable mixed with wind and in some cases strong convergence which in my limited experience of paragliding is a poor mix. I'm with Miskin on this, high winds and paragliding make me shit myself. On most occasions I prefer to sit it out if it's too windy and the shouts of being a tart don't worry me in the slightest because there's always tomorrow.
Competitive pilots.
No matter how competitive you are everyone strives to be better whether it's soaring the ridge or going XC. People soon get bored and want to try something different or try that little bit harder I think it's the nature of the beast.
Maybe people should take a step back and look at the met conditions as much as anything and ask themselves is this for me because I've had days when I've walked away because it didn't feel right ......To me!
Competitive pilots.
No matter how competitive you are everyone strives to be better whether it's soaring the ridge or going XC. People soon get bored and want to try something different or try that little bit harder I think it's the nature of the beast.
Maybe people should take a step back and look at the met conditions as much as anything and ask themselves is this for me because I've had days when I've walked away because it didn't feel right ......To me!
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ron freeman
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Don't foget
Don't forget, hanggliders can take a hell of a lot more turbulance than a paraglider...strong thermals no problem on hanggliders even when only a couple of hundred feet above the ridge 
Paraglider pilots need to take into account when flying in the UK in strong thermic conditions that its not a good situation when you are normally soaring about at 200ft ato ! this give you very little time to sort things out when it all goes sadly wrong
Choose your flying conditions and ability wisely
Nothing wrong with competitions or being competitive, the wings that we fly today are all down to competition development making them much better & safer to fly
Its up to the individual to make the decision to compete or not, it is all about fun but some pilots can only enjoy themselves by being competitive.
Generally most accidents happen when pilots are just floating about with no positive agenda to think about !
Paraglider pilots need to take into account when flying in the UK in strong thermic conditions that its not a good situation when you are normally soaring about at 200ft ato ! this give you very little time to sort things out when it all goes sadly wrong
Choose your flying conditions and ability wisely
Nothing wrong with competitions or being competitive, the wings that we fly today are all down to competition development making them much better & safer to fly
Its up to the individual to make the decision to compete or not, it is all about fun but some pilots can only enjoy themselves by being competitive.
Generally most accidents happen when pilots are just floating about with no positive agenda to think about !
Maximise your time & dosh do both Hanggliding & Paragliding 
XC flying doesn't have to be competitive. For me its a challenge to take off, fly across new terrain and over hills I've only ever been to on foot and to land somewhere away from the normal landing fields (and to take in the amazing situations you find yourself in ) Its more interesting than soaring a ridge for hours. I also think that its good to see what flights have been done from the XC league table and learn from them and routes taken. And whatever you do enjoying it is the most important thing
) Its more interesting than soaring a ridge for hours. I also think that its good to see what flights have been done from the XC league table and learn from them and routes taken. And whatever you do enjoying it is the most important thing
I think Paul has hit the nail on the head......
It's not true for everybody, but as a club mentality (viewed admittedly as an outsider) he's spot on!
It's not true for everybody, but as a club mentality (viewed admittedly as an outsider) he's spot on!
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Yes, I too have to agree with Paul.
Ali has always supported the idea of pilots within the club flying together and learning together. This attitude brings with it not only a safety angle but also the ability to learn from one another, improving skills and knowledge, which will inevitably lead to safer pilots. The feeling of flying together and achieving new goals together is always more fun. There's someone to talk to in the pub while you're waiting to get picked up.
AND it's great for camoaderiw! (I had to look how to spell that one!!)
Ali has always supported the idea of pilots within the club flying together and learning together. This attitude brings with it not only a safety angle but also the ability to learn from one another, improving skills and knowledge, which will inevitably lead to safer pilots. The feeling of flying together and achieving new goals together is always more fun. There's someone to talk to in the pub while you're waiting to get picked up.
AND it's great for camoaderiw! (I had to look how to spell that one!!)
See you out there!!!!!
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Claire Smith
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I’m with Mr Wallis on this one. I don’t think that the recent incidents are due to competitiveness or previous accidents not being reported but more so the recent weather conditions we’ve had.
I do also agree with Paul about the competitive nature that is very much a part of the Club. I’ve been a member for around four years and it not something I’ve seen get any worse in recent times but something which has always been there and existed.
I was asked about Coaching when I was newly qualified and have always said I think that the competitive nature of the Club prevents a real drive being given to coaching when out on the hill as there is an attitude of get there and get away. What I would add is if you do shout and push you’ll be helped so thanks to the Coaches who have stood on my side when I’ve needed it.
Its concerning to see newly qualified pilots kicking themselves for not going XC when really they would benefit more from ridge soaring, top landings, slope landings, more take offs etc than heading along a mountain range in strong, thermic conditions.
If you have aspirations to be a competitive XC pilot then join the national XC league and post your flights there……… that will sort the men from the boys! Posting fly downs on the NHPC league to creep up a place is not, in my mind, what XC flying is about.
Enjoy your flying, enjoy being out on the hills and yes push yourself but do it for you and your personal gain not just to beat the next guy. And at the end of the day if you have to walk down because conditions aren’t right well its not the end of the world……….. just think of the calories that you’ll burn doing it.
I do also agree with Paul about the competitive nature that is very much a part of the Club. I’ve been a member for around four years and it not something I’ve seen get any worse in recent times but something which has always been there and existed.
I was asked about Coaching when I was newly qualified and have always said I think that the competitive nature of the Club prevents a real drive being given to coaching when out on the hill as there is an attitude of get there and get away. What I would add is if you do shout and push you’ll be helped so thanks to the Coaches who have stood on my side when I’ve needed it.
Its concerning to see newly qualified pilots kicking themselves for not going XC when really they would benefit more from ridge soaring, top landings, slope landings, more take offs etc than heading along a mountain range in strong, thermic conditions.
If you have aspirations to be a competitive XC pilot then join the national XC league and post your flights there……… that will sort the men from the boys! Posting fly downs on the NHPC league to creep up a place is not, in my mind, what XC flying is about.
Enjoy your flying, enjoy being out on the hills and yes push yourself but do it for you and your personal gain not just to beat the next guy. And at the end of the day if you have to walk down because conditions aren’t right well its not the end of the world……….. just think of the calories that you’ll burn doing it.
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chrisfozz
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beer goggles
Has anyone else suffered from Goal Goggles? They’re a bit like beer goggles but not as much fun. I know I have, and got a right good thrashing for my efforts.
It’s not difficult to see how in competitions or when the adrenalin is pumping our ability to make informed, rational decisions is reduced. Similarly, negative thoughts or discussions can lead to more cautious decisions with the result that people don’t get as much from their flying as they otherwise might have done. I try to focus on making proper risk assessments before I fly and if I’m not sure or can’t work it out I’ll wait and let someone else have a go. I find giving my excitement time to settle and enjoying the crack to be a good thing.
I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who started flying cos they wanted to win trophies, having said that, generally, we do seem to be a fairly competitive bunch. I agree with Paul, we need to be careful about how we use this competitive mentality but I know a lot of us have found competitions to be a positive experience and a good way to get more from our flying.
It’s not difficult to see how in competitions or when the adrenalin is pumping our ability to make informed, rational decisions is reduced. Similarly, negative thoughts or discussions can lead to more cautious decisions with the result that people don’t get as much from their flying as they otherwise might have done. I try to focus on making proper risk assessments before I fly and if I’m not sure or can’t work it out I’ll wait and let someone else have a go. I find giving my excitement time to settle and enjoying the crack to be a good thing.
I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who started flying cos they wanted to win trophies, having said that, generally, we do seem to be a fairly competitive bunch. I agree with Paul, we need to be careful about how we use this competitive mentality but I know a lot of us have found competitions to be a positive experience and a good way to get more from our flying.
Re: Don't foget
+1 Ron, I previously thought it's only "positively soarable" breeze that decks PGs, but last Sunday at Tinto there was almost no wind and most PGs sat on the hill side afraid of "punchy" thermals. While I was enjoying my best flight in Scotland ever, with plenty of "wheee!!!" and absolutely none of "whoa!!!"ron freeman wrote:Don't forget, hanggliders can take a hell of a lot more turbulance than a paraglider...strong thermals no problem on hanggliders even when only a couple of hundred feet above the ridge
Edit to add: I do get some "whoa!!!" on other days, but then I'm the only one to fly in Scotland those days
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gary stenhouse
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competition is only a problem if you are anti competition other than that most of us are out there enjoying ourselves and trying to improve. as for others i can see the mad youn keen ones trying to push bounderies and remember that you can get good quickly but it takes a long time to become an acomplished pilot. fly safe be happy and frankly if others chosse to fly dangerously then that is there choice, but remamber what has happend to me and many others before you are not invincable and it can happen to you.
cheers gary
cheers gary
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John Wallis
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Hi Steve interesting statement. Can you elaborate what it is you mean when you say "As a club mentaility" he's spot on.I think Paul has hit the nail on the head......
It's not true for everybody, but as a club mentality (viewed admittedly as an outsider) he's spot on!
Thanks
John
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Jim Bittlestone
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There will always be an element of competition, with peers and with yourself. It's how we improve I guess, trying to go further etc.
It's just that, if this is done in smaller stages, rather than big leaps, i.e more patiently, then the lessons learnt from the last flight/session have more time to sink in.
It's important at this time of year especially to be cautious, take time to look at the conditions, ask those already at the hill how it's been.
I have seen folk just turn up, not speak to anyone about conditions, the feel of the air and just launch.
I have found since my winter absence that this year I am uber cautious, prior to take off, it's my first spring flying and I'm really enjoying it once I'm up.
I want to go XC, it's what it's all about for me, the feeling of freedom, flying in the hills I know from walks and climbs, seeing them from a different viewpoint etc.
But it's got to be right, if it's not on, don't force it.
Risk and reward.
The camoaderiw's got to be the thing, it's where we learn a lot of stuff. IMHO, the camoaderiw gets overlooked, it's not a wasted day.
If our best guys can get caught out, anyone can.
Not wanting to preach, just my opinion.
Cheers
Jim
It's just that, if this is done in smaller stages, rather than big leaps, i.e more patiently, then the lessons learnt from the last flight/session have more time to sink in.
It's important at this time of year especially to be cautious, take time to look at the conditions, ask those already at the hill how it's been.
I have seen folk just turn up, not speak to anyone about conditions, the feel of the air and just launch.
I have found since my winter absence that this year I am uber cautious, prior to take off, it's my first spring flying and I'm really enjoying it once I'm up.
I want to go XC, it's what it's all about for me, the feeling of freedom, flying in the hills I know from walks and climbs, seeing them from a different viewpoint etc.
But it's got to be right, if it's not on, don't force it.
Risk and reward.
The camoaderiw's got to be the thing, it's where we learn a lot of stuff. IMHO, the camoaderiw gets overlooked, it's not a wasted day.
If our best guys can get caught out, anyone can.
Not wanting to preach, just my opinion.
Cheers
Jim
.
What are the incidents that are causing concern? Aside from CKs - and well done for reporting it - the recent incidents that I know of have been from experienced, if not the NHPCs MOST experienced pilots.
XC has not had any great bearing on them that I know of. Collapses such as AG's and CK’s are down to the conditions and a portion of luck - bad that it happened followed by good that they weren’t more seriously hurt. Pilot Voldemort, he who shall not be named, should be commended for his clear thinking and decisive actions - WELL DONE. GS definetly wasn't going XC and got caught out with lack of experience. Just rusty spring pilots?
Don't let XC become something to be feared or ashamed of trying - as Ronny and Gary say you’re up and away from the ground and your mind is focused, I'd say you are safer than on a ridge in soarable thermic winds.
Also, and please don't take this the wrong way, don't confuse dribbling off the edge of a windy ridge as a proper XC, your enjoying the worst aspects of everything - low, downwind & no lift. For those pilots aspiring to XC have a chat to those who go over the back regularly and spend your time trying to get as high as you can as far forward out of ridge lift as you can - far more useful skills than running along ridges, the joy of XCs is in getting HIGH and enjoying the view.
If folks need anonymity regarding safety posts then perhaps submit a report to the Clubs Chief Coach or safety officer and he can post them for you - No names, no pack drill, just useful feedback that might save your mates the same experience.
XC has not had any great bearing on them that I know of. Collapses such as AG's and CK’s are down to the conditions and a portion of luck - bad that it happened followed by good that they weren’t more seriously hurt. Pilot Voldemort, he who shall not be named, should be commended for his clear thinking and decisive actions - WELL DONE. GS definetly wasn't going XC and got caught out with lack of experience. Just rusty spring pilots?
Don't let XC become something to be feared or ashamed of trying - as Ronny and Gary say you’re up and away from the ground and your mind is focused, I'd say you are safer than on a ridge in soarable thermic winds.
Also, and please don't take this the wrong way, don't confuse dribbling off the edge of a windy ridge as a proper XC, your enjoying the worst aspects of everything - low, downwind & no lift. For those pilots aspiring to XC have a chat to those who go over the back regularly and spend your time trying to get as high as you can as far forward out of ridge lift as you can - far more useful skills than running along ridges, the joy of XCs is in getting HIGH and enjoying the view.
If folks need anonymity regarding safety posts then perhaps submit a report to the Clubs Chief Coach or safety officer and he can post them for you - No names, no pack drill, just useful feedback that might save your mates the same experience.