This Club Comp Thing....Again

myerscouse · Post by **myerscouse** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:11 pm

After much debate at the last club meeting regarding Comp Scoring..All has gone quiet...So, here is a suggestion to get the ball rolling.

We keep the excellent system that Steve has in place, and continue to use it . However, for the purpose of the Summer XC why not keep it simple and just use 'Open Distance ' to score.
Thereby not isolating club members that are not ofay with the use of Computers and GPS , GPS dump, multi turnpoint and triangles etc. etc

It is my opinion that straight forward open distance will recognize the best pilot.

Any other suggestions...and then we can take a vote on it at the next Club Meeting.

Chris L · Post by **Chris L** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:36 pm

In my opinion open distance is the way to go. Don't set a min distance so everyone is included and there are no complications of multipliers and silly maths to make flights longer.
This won't impact on those at the top of the league, I'm sure the normal suspects will secure victory, but atleast we can see how everyone else stacks up in the league underneath them. Straight forward; everyone knows where they stand using Fingers excellent XC league and don't have to wait for Ronnie to work out the results or submit grid refs and all that nonsense that just puts people off

Open distance is also just more exciting flying

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:17 pm

nonsense that just puts people off

I agree Chris

I'm new to all this high tech scoring but would it not make sense for everyone to just use the OLC scoring that has been set up and if we do that no matter what flight you do we are all scoring from the same hymn sheet. It makes sense to me but maybe I'm missing something

ron freeman · Post by **ron freeman** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:44 pm

OLC km is the best way to go, not OLC scoring ask Ian Miskin he will explain it fully.

I thought the club voted (ha ha) on using the National XC league rules they are quite simple if you read them through.

Chris L did you send your grid ref... I can't find them ?

Competitions Officer, (trying very hard)

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:33 pm

OLC km is the best way to go, not OLC scoring ask Ian Miskin he will explain it fully.

Whichever as long as you can turn on the PC click XC league and see what position you're in. Why make it hard when the tools in place to do it???

I must admit I haven't followed all the shit about the different scoring types coz it just turns me off (As Chris said) Can we not just use Fingers most excellent system and be done with it.

I must be missing something here.... Great system > enter flight> get some points> See your position> job done. Come on gurus whats wrong what am I missing.

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:38 am

i would agree olc km is the way to go but i still think there has to be the greatest od as well. and yes it is all done for you on are wonderfull xc league, thanks to steve. so for simplicity i would say no multipliers in the summer leugue just plain and simple olc kms and open distance and that way it keeps it all verry easy t judge in are club.

so let the battle begin

ron freeman · Post by **ron freeman** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:05 am

Gary, you are entering flights into the National XC league... why dont you ask them to stop the multipliers ?

I dont how many times I've said this - out & returns & triangles are much harder than open distance flying this is why get you extra km's.

Try doing an out & return....and I dont mean flying along a ridge and back !

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:18 pm

I is great that people are taking the time to now look at the system and how it can be used to its potential.

Had a conversation with Mark Dale from the BHPA a few weeks ago. Asking him about the multipliers to get the opinion of the BHPA. Mark mentioned years ago it was thought that if you turned a hang glider 360 it would fall from the sky as it was thought if the glider was pointed down wind all the air would fall out the sail! He said the X factor was drawn up to push the sport forward and encourage people to do FAI triangles and out and returns. These multipliers come into to play when all these flights are mixed into one league so a 50k OD does not beat a 40k FAI triangle.

Yes it is harder to do FAI triangles.

Yes it is harder to do an Out and return out of ridge lift.

Our league can be separated into 4 different leagues

OD - 3 turn points - FAI - OLC

I my opinion we could use the OLC as the all in one league as the National XC league is. Comparing these 2 flights it still encourages you to go for OR and flat triangles as the scores reflect this.

http://www.nhpc.org.uk/nhpc/modules.php ... ghtID=1644

http://www.nhpc.org.uk/nhpc/modules.php ... ghtID=1206

Then a separate league all together for the FAI to encourage people to do triangles.

Which ever way you look at it though the key thing is that every one is on the same playing field.

Chris L · Post by **Chris L** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:26 pm

I agree we should use the XC league on the site as it is. Then everyone can see at glance their position. However it would be nice to know how OLC scores flights ie do you get more for a triangle than open distance. Gary was given a high score as a free triangle on his OR along Blease Fell but on what basis? The problem with OLC is the same as with multipliers it just complicates things and requires an understanding of how it scores flights so you have to work out whether to do a OR or triangle or OD to get max points, and I really can't be bothered with all that

This is why I think using open distance on the league for our summer club comp is the simplest way to go. Everyone understands that they need to go the furthest straight line distance from TO to Landing. Easy. All can participate without getting bogged down with maximising points by doing free, flat or FAI triangles and all that silly shite

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:08 pm

Chris just trying as you are to get my head round this I looked at the xc league and pulled up your triangle at Bewaldeth the other day

http://www.nhpc.org.uk/nhpc/modules/leo ... 0Chris.igc

You flew a triangle > It appears in the scoring as a triangle > and I assume??? it scored you as a triangle. So no matter what sort of flight you do whether a down wind XC or Triangle or an out and return the system will score that flight on it's merits???

So does that mean we can do what ever flights we feel like during the season and the pilot who is at the top of the list wins?

Is it as simple as this? This would do away altogether with the need for bits of paper with grid references on them.

Those in the know will probably be saying he's miles behind the times here but I'd like to bet there's more than me confused.

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:20 pm

Yes John that is it,......... it is that simple.

The only thing that might need looking at is the OLC, but I take it to be a Start - 5 turn points - Land

OLC = Scoring distance
After the flight the start point, up to five turnpoints and the finish point are determined on the flight trace, so that the scored points for the flights are maximized.

Scoring
1 point per kilometer is granted for the distance from start point around three turnpoints to the fourth turn point.
For the distance between the fourth turnpoint to the fifth turnpoint 0.8 raw points per kilometer are granted.
For the distance between fifth turnpoint and the finish point 0.6 raw points per kilometer are granted.
Turnpoint four and five, as well as the finish point can be the same.

See here for more info.

http://www.nhpc.org.uk/nhpc/viewtopic.php?t=1943

BUT

Surly the best thing to be doing is to just fly the best flight you can. If you think you can do a good OD are you going to then turn back to try for a FAI triangle or are you going to do an OR instead of doing 100k OD!!! points points badges and more of em.!

If you are so so so competitive to do this then you will be putting into the National XC league.

This is working as you see it live and without prejudice. When the year is over there might be a need to look at the top winning flights to check for any possible air law infringements etc. But checking 18 flights at the click of a button to put into Google earth with the air maps will take all of 2 hours or so. I would imagine they will be looked at well before the end by the people underneth wanting to be on top and make sure I or someone knows about it.

EASY,

Just go fly, the site will give you the best possible score for your flight.

Like I say I think there needs to be at least 2 completely seperate leagues to which there will be 2 winners of. One of which is the FAI Triangle League because of the way it scores, this will also encorage people to have a go at an FAI if there is a seperate cup for it.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:41 pm

most of it is down to luck
can u get off work
will the wife let u go
will it be raining when u get there
are the batteries in your vario flat
have u got enough superglue to get up x fell
etc
I think if you cant fly for one reason or another a random number generator should be employed to give u a score for the day.

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:20 am

Yep Neil, I agree!

It's this sort of ***** that puts people off at club level. It needs to be simple and sorted so that we can just look at Steve's excellent league table and see where we are placed.
The winter league? Like Chris I didn't send my grids in......because I couldn't be bothered, when there is an excellent system already in place. From what I remember, (and no, I'm not going back to check) there were only 3 sets of grids entered......speaks volumes in such an active club!!!!!
Most people, I'm sure look at the league on the web site, but very few are possessed by the devil incarnate which requires them to prove themselves just to get the recognition and hero worship of such a small community, their self esteem must be at an all time low to need such a fix!
Lets get back on this planet and just enjoy the flying and appreciate the hard work of Steve and pick a system and stick to it.
Hey, I must have been taking Steve's happy pills!

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:10 am

Lets get back on this planet and just enjoy the flying and appreciate the hard work of Steve and pick a system and stick to it.

Well said Brian