Another deceptive flying day --- howling on the way there and nice conditions on High Cap, see link>.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfClndhUY1Y
Friday on X Fell
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John Watson
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Well done John and the guys. We were at the Lowca (Bewaldeth still closed!) and it was top end all day, surprised that it was o.k. on Cross Fell, how strong do you reckon it was? What time were you flying? Might be a site like Carrock that can be o.k. when its windy everywhere else, lighter wind effect e.t.c. Do you reckon there was wave about? How strong were the thermals?
Sorry for the interrogation I am just intrigued, especially after just popping my Cross Fell Cherry recently and loving it (puts fringing Lowca to shame anyway!)
Sorry for the interrogation I am just intrigued, especially after just popping my Cross Fell Cherry recently and loving it (puts fringing Lowca to shame anyway!)
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Andrew Maltby
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Cross Fell is exactly like Carrock Fell in reverse, lighter winds when it's blown out elswhere. It was like that yesterday with good thermals and the ability to fly well out in front(out to the lake at times!).
Sky god Watson put everybody to shame with an exceptional bit of flying out in front of the ridge!
Sky god Watson put everybody to shame with an exceptional bit of flying out in front of the ridge!
For me it was the best flight I've ever had but then I've not got much experience to go with!
Big thanks to John and John for convincing us to stick around when we thought it was blown out!
The wind just dropped off at around 3pm to a background of around 10-12 mph. Launching was fine, never felt pinned, and the thermals were popping off everywhere! They were a bit raggy but still not too bad. Wild Boar Scar was the best place to be for constant lift.
The most amazing feeling for me (I'm sure for the rest of you this is normal) was floating around above Kirkland about 400m above, just looking around and picking my landing field, knowing that the only reason I was coming down was because I wanted to. A long way from my usual "Mr Sinky" top to bottom flights.
Big thanks to John and John for convincing us to stick around when we thought it was blown out!
The wind just dropped off at around 3pm to a background of around 10-12 mph. Launching was fine, never felt pinned, and the thermals were popping off everywhere! They were a bit raggy but still not too bad. Wild Boar Scar was the best place to be for constant lift.
The most amazing feeling for me (I'm sure for the rest of you this is normal) was floating around above Kirkland about 400m above, just looking around and picking my landing field, knowing that the only reason I was coming down was because I wanted to. A long way from my usual "Mr Sinky" top to bottom flights.
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John Watson
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Theres many days I've had good flying on Cross Fell when its blown out elswhere Gordy, It was pure thermal yesterday with upper speeds of about 20MPH WSW backing SW near base and very strong lift at times. I had full bar on and big ears and still got sucked into cloud 
whats the best way to avoid this?
A point to remember with this direction is if you take off on the westerly end of High cap in a WSW it takes you directly over the very rotory crags so avoid this and carry down to the front.
In my experience of Cross Fell I havnt had many encounters with wave, even in Hang gliders.
whats the best way to avoid this?
A point to remember with this direction is if you take off on the westerly end of High cap in a WSW it takes you directly over the very rotory crags so avoid this and carry down to the front.
In my experience of Cross Fell I havnt had many encounters with wave, even in Hang gliders.
If you are getting sucked into cloud on full speed bar and big ears then you are in trouble!
You can either spiral or b line but both involve a radical loss of ground downwind so not always practical.
If the winds are strong you perhaps want to stay further away from base? ie stop climbing earlier.
Sorry!
You can either spiral or b line but both involve a radical loss of ground downwind so not always practical.
If the winds are strong you perhaps want to stay further away from base? ie stop climbing earlier.
Sorry!
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John Watson
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I see what you mean Dave, But it's not only the High Cap area I'm on about, its the whole general area that benefits from this effect --- Wild Boar --- Melmerby Bowl etc etc. The Hartside area doesn't have this effect; I think it is wave induced from the lakes but possibly only reachable by higher performance machines.
But there again, Wave tends to ruin thermal activity so who Know's, its your'e guess as good as mine, one thing for sure, Google earth wont tell you.
But there again, Wave tends to ruin thermal activity so who Know's, its your'e guess as good as mine, one thing for sure, Google earth wont tell you.
Cheers for the responses guys, great to get a few local secrets from the luminary Northumbrian's.
As with any site I fly for the first time I find it immensely intriguing to try and suss out how it all works. Thoughs of you I have taught will know how I like to 'psychoanalyze' the conditions and try and figure out each days big picture. Having only had a couple of days at Cross Fell I would by know means say I am an expert but from what I experienced it is a great site which will acquire a variety of conditions from time to time.
My first flight at Cross Fell was defiantly dominated by wave. It was a poor day with us just on the tip of an occluded front (humid, cloud base 2,500ft ish and a 10-15MPH s.w. breeze. The air was passing over the Lakes and traveling over the Eden valley with very little sun on the ground to create thermals and disturb things. I could tell that the week stratus cloud that was forming on the summit of Cross Fell and else were was in a wave pattern (staying roughly were it was and not drifting down wind). It did not look great but I understood how weak wave can induce other forms of lift to congregate and in places creating large buoyant areas of sky. So my plan was to take off and work as far tactically up wind as I could and then sit and wait until I got with in easy reach of anything which looked good.
Took off bottom of Cross Fell and quickly soared up. Pushed across onto the ridge to the south and worked that right to its far end (before Dunfell area). At this point all the ground raises up out of a low valley gently at first and then steep to the ridge line and I knew this was the best place to sit and wait in this relatively ascending undisturbed air. Sure enough weak thermals started to come through but after one or two 360 I would push back out into the valley before they petered out and to keep my tactical advantage. I had a large area of stratus above me with the leading edge forming constantley infront of me over the valley. After a bit of patience and hight the thermals improved and I managed to get a great one which took me up to base, having decided to stay with this one I had drift back over the top of the ridge but being at base and in weak wave meant that I could sustain my hight in the weak lift all the way out into the valley (infact I needed big ears to stay out of the cloud). On arriving at the leading edge of the stratus I noticed it ran in a long ling from s.e to n.w. and it was obviously wave. So off I set on a glide to the N.W. and Kirkland holding my height all the way. Kirkland was also in Sun and the wave bar was just down wind of it, perfect really. I arrived above Kirkland and patiently went into wave flying mode trying to find thermals and more buoyant bits and being careful not to head off to quickly down wind with them into the sinky stuff (often a bit rough) which was now over Cross Fell. After a bit the area of wave I was in seemed to brake up and the stratus cleared so I gently played with some choppy thermals which eventually brought me back to Cross Fell.
Not being a competertive type I did not measure my flights, but it was probley a 50K triangle by League standards. And Johns flight looks like it could be a Northumbrian triangle / out and return record if he wished it to be. So think on it theres always more to the picture.
To sum up wave:
- Happens rarely well on a paraglider due to the wind strength we fly in, however weak wave is often there and will add to the over all 'Big Picture' of that particular day.
- Needs nice hills to create wave and areas like the Eden valley down wind, were the air has chance to sort itself out and get a good wave length. The Lakes hills are a bit to close together and chop the wave up to much normally to make it any good.
- When wave is present look for signs like clouds (any type) forming in the same area.
- Be carefull not to follow thermals down wind to quickly, and always try and push back up wind to the good area of sky where the lift is happening.
- Keep your eyes and minds open as it may be present more then you realize.
Posted a couple of Pic's to illistrate what I mean.
As with any site I fly for the first time I find it immensely intriguing to try and suss out how it all works. Thoughs of you I have taught will know how I like to 'psychoanalyze' the conditions and try and figure out each days big picture. Having only had a couple of days at Cross Fell I would by know means say I am an expert but from what I experienced it is a great site which will acquire a variety of conditions from time to time.
My first flight at Cross Fell was defiantly dominated by wave. It was a poor day with us just on the tip of an occluded front (humid, cloud base 2,500ft ish and a 10-15MPH s.w. breeze. The air was passing over the Lakes and traveling over the Eden valley with very little sun on the ground to create thermals and disturb things. I could tell that the week stratus cloud that was forming on the summit of Cross Fell and else were was in a wave pattern (staying roughly were it was and not drifting down wind). It did not look great but I understood how weak wave can induce other forms of lift to congregate and in places creating large buoyant areas of sky. So my plan was to take off and work as far tactically up wind as I could and then sit and wait until I got with in easy reach of anything which looked good.
Took off bottom of Cross Fell and quickly soared up. Pushed across onto the ridge to the south and worked that right to its far end (before Dunfell area). At this point all the ground raises up out of a low valley gently at first and then steep to the ridge line and I knew this was the best place to sit and wait in this relatively ascending undisturbed air. Sure enough weak thermals started to come through but after one or two 360 I would push back out into the valley before they petered out and to keep my tactical advantage. I had a large area of stratus above me with the leading edge forming constantley infront of me over the valley. After a bit of patience and hight the thermals improved and I managed to get a great one which took me up to base, having decided to stay with this one I had drift back over the top of the ridge but being at base and in weak wave meant that I could sustain my hight in the weak lift all the way out into the valley (infact I needed big ears to stay out of the cloud). On arriving at the leading edge of the stratus I noticed it ran in a long ling from s.e to n.w. and it was obviously wave. So off I set on a glide to the N.W. and Kirkland holding my height all the way. Kirkland was also in Sun and the wave bar was just down wind of it, perfect really. I arrived above Kirkland and patiently went into wave flying mode trying to find thermals and more buoyant bits and being careful not to head off to quickly down wind with them into the sinky stuff (often a bit rough) which was now over Cross Fell. After a bit the area of wave I was in seemed to brake up and the stratus cleared so I gently played with some choppy thermals which eventually brought me back to Cross Fell.
Not being a competertive type I did not measure my flights, but it was probley a 50K triangle by League standards. And Johns flight looks like it could be a Northumbrian triangle / out and return record if he wished it to be. So think on it theres always more to the picture.
To sum up wave:
- Happens rarely well on a paraglider due to the wind strength we fly in, however weak wave is often there and will add to the over all 'Big Picture' of that particular day.
- Needs nice hills to create wave and areas like the Eden valley down wind, were the air has chance to sort itself out and get a good wave length. The Lakes hills are a bit to close together and chop the wave up to much normally to make it any good.
- When wave is present look for signs like clouds (any type) forming in the same area.
- Be carefull not to follow thermals down wind to quickly, and always try and push back up wind to the good area of sky where the lift is happening.
- Keep your eyes and minds open as it may be present more then you realize.
Posted a couple of Pic's to illistrate what I mean.
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John Wallis
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The most defined lenticulars I've ever seen at Cross Fell happened just a few weeks back. There was a bunch of us waiting for the wind to drop and the time was around 19.30 There was the most perfect clouds forming all around the Cross Fell range but as soon as the wind eased they disappeared.
The only real wave I can definitely say I've encountered at Cross Fell was when flying Wild Boar Scar on a hang glider with John Miller. The weird thing was there was a fair bit of cumulus about and the lift continued up past the clouds to about 2000 feet above, it was one if not the best flight I ever had on Cross Fell. I'm sure like Gordie says there is wave around if you can spot it but I feel especially on a day with a lot of status around you also get a lot of cloud suck which people may decide to call wave. Probably status with embedded Cb'
s in them
The only real wave I can definitely say I've encountered at Cross Fell was when flying Wild Boar Scar on a hang glider with John Miller. The weird thing was there was a fair bit of cumulus about and the lift continued up past the clouds to about 2000 feet above, it was one if not the best flight I ever had on Cross Fell. I'm sure like Gordie says there is wave around if you can spot it but I feel especially on a day with a lot of status around you also get a lot of cloud suck which people may decide to call wave. Probably status with embedded Cb'
s in themLivetrack24 wannyjollis
“If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got.”
“If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got.”
Enjoyed your article about wave at Cross Fell…..You omitted to say what date it was I wonder why we weren’t there?
I’m still digesting what you wrote, and will need to read it two or ten times more to see what can be gleaned, and then use it to make myself more of an ace than I already am!
On the face of it, without decrying what you have wrote….I would say that flying out to Kirkland….and way beyond, seems very do-able on a Para-glider….Witness what Mikey wrote, about him and Andrew…..
A bigger pair of daffodils you would struggle hard to find again on this planet….
They spent half of Friday, while we were flying, carving their initials in a big heart on the conker tree, just up from Bleak House, in Kirkland village…
I digress.
So as achievements go, it doesn’t seem like much…..But I can see where you are coming from…..I suppose the deciding thing is that when you are in wave, everything changes, and when that lift wraps itself around you, you know that it can’t get much better…..I don’t know how good John Wallis’s memory is, but I reckon we have had wave at least four times since I started flying…..Windy wave though!
As you originally asked about the flying on Friday….Here’s my two penny worth
I was hang –gliding but had to take my hat off to the Para gliders…..they seemed to be getting the best of whatever lift that there was, and moving around fast, which seemed to be-lie the wind speed, JohnWatson in particular, always high and going wherever he wanted to…..This is why I hate him.
I was using my new secret weapon, of watching the vario closely, and trying to map out exactly where the lift was…..I don’t think it worked very well….Why?
If you cranked it and banked it you seemed to get more for your money.
I noticed also that when the lift hit both myself and whichever paraglider I was nearest to….He always went up more than me, purely by the fact that he wasn’t moving forward…..I ‘m still analysing this….It looks like its time to try the rectangular flight thermal staying in theory.
So……it seems to me, that on the days when it is flyable for both hang and paragliders… the paragliders seem to be able to get more out of whatever lift there is about.
No complaints with Fridays flying though….Pity about Bob breaking his arm though….
The things people do to get time off!
I’m still digesting what you wrote, and will need to read it two or ten times more to see what can be gleaned, and then use it to make myself more of an ace than I already am!
On the face of it, without decrying what you have wrote….I would say that flying out to Kirkland….and way beyond, seems very do-able on a Para-glider….Witness what Mikey wrote, about him and Andrew…..
A bigger pair of daffodils you would struggle hard to find again on this planet….
They spent half of Friday, while we were flying, carving their initials in a big heart on the conker tree, just up from Bleak House, in Kirkland village…
I digress.
So as achievements go, it doesn’t seem like much…..But I can see where you are coming from…..I suppose the deciding thing is that when you are in wave, everything changes, and when that lift wraps itself around you, you know that it can’t get much better…..I don’t know how good John Wallis’s memory is, but I reckon we have had wave at least four times since I started flying…..Windy wave though!
As you originally asked about the flying on Friday….Here’s my two penny worth
I was hang –gliding but had to take my hat off to the Para gliders…..they seemed to be getting the best of whatever lift that there was, and moving around fast, which seemed to be-lie the wind speed, JohnWatson in particular, always high and going wherever he wanted to…..This is why I hate him.
I was using my new secret weapon, of watching the vario closely, and trying to map out exactly where the lift was…..I don’t think it worked very well….Why?
If you cranked it and banked it you seemed to get more for your money.
I noticed also that when the lift hit both myself and whichever paraglider I was nearest to….He always went up more than me, purely by the fact that he wasn’t moving forward…..I ‘m still analysing this….It looks like its time to try the rectangular flight thermal staying in theory.
So……it seems to me, that on the days when it is flyable for both hang and paragliders… the paragliders seem to be able to get more out of whatever lift there is about.
No complaints with Fridays flying though….Pity about Bob breaking his arm though….
The things people do to get time off!
O'pps forgot to mention that once I moved on to the next ridge infront of Cross Fell (High Cap?) my vario stopped working, which stopped me trying to over work any lift. After this point the whole flight was done by trying to put my self in the best place in the sky and work what every lift was there. Don't get me wrong it was a crap day (Friday 10th August) , low cloud base, no sun e.t.c. and not a mega flight by any stretch of the imagination. I just think I made the most of what was available. It was by no means a strong dominant wave day when the thermals will mass by the catalytic effect of the up cycle of the wave and create cloud streets which appear at right angles to the wind direction. Just one when so little was happening apart from ridge lift that what theory I put into practice worked for me.
Agree with the points about it being easy to push forward in the right conditions which is why I think Cross Fell has a huge potential for triangle flights especially with how the xc league scoring works. For example if the Guys the other day had ridge soared a triangle after they had initially pushed into wind how far do they reckon it would be?
Every day on every hill is in some way different. You will get big factors i.e. laps rate, time of year e.t.c. and more subtle ones which are harder to spot. Thought it would be interesting to try and understand the inter-grasses of a new site and promote a little debate.
Agree with the points about it being easy to push forward in the right conditions which is why I think Cross Fell has a huge potential for triangle flights especially with how the xc league scoring works. For example if the Guys the other day had ridge soared a triangle after they had initially pushed into wind how far do they reckon it would be?
Every day on every hill is in some way different. You will get big factors i.e. laps rate, time of year e.t.c. and more subtle ones which are harder to spot. Thought it would be interesting to try and understand the inter-grasses of a new site and promote a little debate.
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John Watson
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Thats the trouble John, people can't differentiate between other lift and wave because they havn't experienced wave. I have a few hundred hours on hang gliders, and I have only ever undoubtably experienced it three times, --- Weather Fell, Clough Head and Mallerstang, Im sure Gordy Know's the score, but I often hear paraglider's talking of the wave being great, well I was in the same air and I didnt get waveyou also get a lot of cloud suck which people may decide to call wave.
I think Gordy and John will agree - that wave is a totally smooth and laminar feeling, unmatched by other lift, Its hard for me to explain what it felt like - just super smooth and the air was humming.
Q; - What's cloud suck?
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John Wallis
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Exactly that John. If you have an unstable day with overcast skies say 8/8 strato cumulus you can't see the height of the clouds and one of the dodgy things is a forecast with embedded CBs in it. This means you have a grey dull sky with hidden CBs in it which you can't see because it's total cover or near enough total cover. So you fly under a CB or large cumi what happens? You get sucked up. In these conditions you can't look up and see how big the clouds are because the sky is grey and overcast....But the big clouds are still there lurking about waiting to get you on your piece of cloth.Q; - What's cloud suck?
HTH
JW
Livetrack24 wannyjollis
“If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got.”
“If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got.”
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John Watson
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I don't agree John, I think it's thermal, it may not have a column beneath the cloud, but I believe its a layer of warm air being generated beneath the cloud. If your not high enough too reach the layer your mate 100ft above you could be floating around effortlessly and you'll be going down 
So I dont think there is such a thing as cloud suck, although you do get sucked into cloud
we'll just have to think of another name for it.
So I dont think there is such a thing as cloud suck, although you do get sucked into cloud
we'll just have to think of another name for it.
Wave on Xfell
From what I've seen wave is common on Xfell although not always immediately apparent as the lenticulars are above the cumulus that trigger off the ridge...........
Is cloud suck not that extra boost of lift you get as the moisture condenses and gives out a little more heat boosting the lapse rate within the cloud. If your hanging on the bottom of a Cu it can sustain you but the poor fellas safely 500 below the cloud sink to the earth beneath you?
Is cloud suck not that extra boost of lift you get as the moisture condenses and gives out a little more heat boosting the lapse rate within the cloud. If your hanging on the bottom of a Cu it can sustain you but the poor fellas safely 500 below the cloud sink to the earth beneath you?
Wave at Cross Fell
just posted a pic from that very eveningThe most defined lenticulars I've ever seen at Cross Fell happened just a few weeks back
Girlpower!
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John Wallis
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John Watson
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