Club membership fees?

[AlastairW]

Claire mentioned at last nights meeting that it is time for memberships to be renewed.

The current subs are only £15.

A number of people suggested that these should be increased to £25, although it was suggested that this might result in a drop in membership, with people who dont fly often deciding not to continue with their membership.

We also discussed setting up a standing order to make payment of fees easier. It was suggested that in the case of a standing order payment, the fees would be reduced from £25 to £20 for payment received by standing order. This makes Claires thankless job of collecting subs so much easier.

Any thoughts are welcome.........

[Jim Bittlestone]

Hi Alistair,
Being a newbie I am not sure of the clubs financial position. Perhaps if you explained this and why folk want fees put up? Then members could vote with more information.
Cheers
Jim

[AlastairW]

Our current balance was just over £1500 as at 2nd July.

That effectively represents about one years worth of subs, as there are around about 100 paying members of the club.

In terms of what you get for your £15, we generally hold an annual BBQ for everyone to get together, with free beer. If you turn up to that and drink 3 pints, plus eat a bit of the food provided, then you have already spent nearly £10 of your membership.

We provide Whisky at Christmas to the farmers who let us use their sites. am not certain exactly how much that costs, but probably another £3 per member.

So leaving the subs at £15 does not really provide much leeway for organizing guest speakers or any other events, or indeed extraordinary expenditure, such as the printing of the new sites guide which we had done last year. (the cost was about £900 if I recall correctly).

Effectively it means that we have about £2 per head to organise anything else.

We have not had many guest speakers this year, due in the main to the fact that I have been aware that funds have been low.

Last year we had some cracking speakers........ Simon Raven and Kitt Rudd from the Lakes, who gave a brilliant talk on using GPS, and Jocky Sanderson, talking on SIV courses, to name but two (or three, if you want to be pedantic.... two talks though).

Put your hands in your pockets, and put the subs up to £25, and the surplus we have goes from £2 per member to £12 per member, a six fold increase. That then gives the events secretary and other members of the committee something to work with.

[Jim Bittlestone]

Hi Alistair,
Thanks for that. It seems that there's only one way to go then. And still cheap at £25! I do like the sound of free beer, there's not much of that around these days.
Jim

[AlastairW]

The free beer is tomorrow Jim.....

[Jim Bittlestone]

Ah manyana, manyana.

[John Wallis]

I don't quite understand this. If we are just holding our own with very little in the way of reserves and we have little or no money for guest speakers to make the meetings interesting why are people voting against it doesn't make sense.

[Jim Bittlestone]

Hi John,
I guess that the club means many things to many people. Some will go to see a speaker, attend the BBQ etc, some won't. Some just want to fly I guess. I'm only guessing mind as I still haven't met anyone yet, cos I was working on Wednesdaynight. Some may see the free BBQ as a bit of a luxury, especially with free beer?
Personally I think that the sites guide, the coaching, social scene, forum, guest speakers, BBQ, events plus whisky for the farmers is an absolute bargain for £25.
The only way the club can grow or progress is with funds and the goodwill of the members.
It's got to be value for money at £25 for a year.
Just my opinion
Jim

[AlastairW]

Interesting........

Out of the 23 who voted, 9 want the subs to remain the same. About 40%.

But not one of the people who have voted for subs to remain the same has attempted to put up a post justifying their reasoning.

Interesting..........

[jill mcgeachie]

Hi Alastair

I wasnt sure how to post a vote, but I think £25 is a bargain. Stuart and I dont come to the meetings as its too far, and havent been to a BBQ yet, but to use the forum and stuff, £25 for a whole year isnt bad at all. And its even better at £20 by paying with a standing order. It will save someone the work of having to go to the bank with cheques. And that is a pain if you work 9 - 5 when the banks are shut! I've had some for 3 weeks which I cant get paid in!

That my opinion in case you are interested.

[Jim Bittlestone]

Hi All,
I agree with Alistair, whichever way you vote, it is useful if you comment as to why. Then folk will understand the reasons and a useful debate can be had. All opinions are needed for the committee to understand the members wishes. Come on, don't be shy, it doesn't take long....
Cheers
Jim

[andrew-billington]

Basically £25 per year represents about one Mars bar per week. Give up the Mars bar get thinner and boost the club funds!

[John Watson]

I dont eat mars bars they're to expensive, with the complete lack of flying I've had Im thinking of packing in, it costs a fortune in petrol running all over the country. The price of petrol is rocketing, the price of mars bars is soaring, my wife has left me, I'm struggling to pay my bills and you're talking about increasing the subs by 40% ---- life is grim in the Watson household
However, it would cheer me up if you took Ronnies honourary membership off him

[colin keightley]

I find it quite unbeleivable that ppl would object to the £25 membership. Ok I havnt seen or flown with everyone but virtually evryone I have seen is flying with over £1000 worth of equipment and quite a lot of people with brand new wings I wouldnt object to it and im more strapped than most.

[Steve.T.]

All of these are my choise ,
I dont go to meeting because of work
I dont fly Northumberland because when was the last week end it was worth driving all the way up there?
I used to take a night off and spend some at the auction but the last couple were very poor.
I am a member of Dales and NYSC so its not just £25 a year if I am going to spend more I will join the lakes instead.
I spend a lot of time on my computer replying to club enquiries with as much enthusiasm as I can but that is running out,no one else wants the job.
I often wonder why I am still a member so if I have the choise wether to pay more or not I will pick not. No doubt I can afford it but you did asked.

[brian day]

Well maybe that started the ball rolling Steve. I voted to keep the price the same.
Why?
Well the list is quite long.
We don't need money in the club.
We are providing whiskey for sites that are rarely if ever used.
We are paying for a site that will probably never be used.
We threw a few bottles of wine at a tenant farmer in our excitement and offered to pay to fly the site, we've never been allowed back since.
We've got an entertainments person on the committee, but whenever people come to talk members don't turn up and those that do sit and rudely have their own conversations.
When was it voted on that we should spend club money on free beer, if it was voted on, then a rethink may be in order.
WHEN IS THE BBQ????
Oh has it already passed?
There are no coaching weekends for new pilots
There are no improvement or incentives for pilots who want to improve their rating.
There is a competition secretary who organises 1 comp per year. More scope and lateral thinking required here. No the yearly stuff runs itself.
We've got enough interesting people in the club to listen to without paying high prices for big egos.
I'm getting bored now, but the list goes on. Alistair seems to have a bee in his wig about raising the club fees, he's had a go for the last 3 years. I wouldn't mind paying if there was a valid reason. A larger bank balance for the club is not a valid reason.

[colin keightley]

After listening to some of these coments i think ive changed my mind as these are all valid points

[Kay]

Hi Folks.

Just picked up the thread after being away...

Lets Face Facts....Having done a stint as membership secretary for about 6 years Getting some active members to pay ANYTHING is hard enough !

In the past membership renewals have been done for the 1st June each year...Don't ask me why June 1st thats just the way I inherited the job.

There-after I would send out reminder letters with an up-date of personal info and confirmation of BHPA membership. These would go out mid May in preparation for June re-newals...If I had 50% back with cheques by the end of June I was lucky. The rest of the year was spent chasing up folk and confronting them on the hill or at Club meetings..Not much fun .

SO... I have voted to keep the club fees the same but
PLEASE PAY UP......................EVERYONE

If everyone paid their fees promptly we would by this time of year have a healthy Bank Balance that would allow us to have Speakers at Meetings..Important also
To have a club BBQ...Very Important especially when we have such crap flying year as this, and the usuall regular meeting up with flying chums on the hill does'nt materialize as regularly as we would like.
The bonding of members within the club is as important as the flying in my opinion.

One change I would recommend would be to make the Club financial year start maybe 1st March ...When the flying season should start !!!
Should we vote on this at the AGM

SO..........If you hav'nt paid your fees for 2008 PLease for the sake of the club get them paid NOW...If the club has no money we cannot continue.

Kay

[AlastairW]

We don't need money in the club.

Absolutely right, if you dont want the club to have any potential to progress or move forward. Frankly world domination on £20 per head per year is not likely to happen.

We are providing whiskey for sites that are rarely if ever used.

Again you are absolutely right Brian, but if we dont give the farmer the whisky then you can guarantee that the site will be lost. I suppose we could all save ourselves a couple of quid a year by going down this route. However if Ron Don thinks it appropriate to give whisky to the fsarmer then i am not going to disagree with him.

We are paying for a site that will probably never be used.
We threw a few bottles of wine at a tenant farmer in our excitement and offered to pay to fly the site, we've never been allowed back since.

I presume that this is a reference to Croglin.
A number of club members have seen the bigger picture with regards to this. Certainly Ron Don has. One of our best sites was Cumrew. It would be good to be able to fly there again.

We've got an entertainments person on the committee, but whenever people come to talk members don't turn up and those that do sit and rudely have their own conversations.


The last time we had a speaker at the club meeting was Gary Wirdnham. I think that was the meeting in March? I cant remember people talking through the presentation by Gary. That is in any event a side issue. The fact is that when we have had big name speakers there has been a great turn out at club meetings. As I recall there were over 40 turned out for the last talk by Jocky Sanderson.

When was it voted on that we should spend club money on free beer, if it was voted on, then a rethink may be in order.

As far as I am aware it has never been voted on during my membership of the club.

WHEN IS THE BBQ????

Whenever you want it Brian.... it is just a question of organising it.
There is a related thread in the members only section in which I said the BBQ was not going to happen this year. I apologise for saying that. What i should have said was that Susan and myself were not going to organise the BBQ this year. Events like this just dont "happen". They require a lot of time and effort to make sure that they are the fun events that we have had in the past.
It would be great to have one in the Ingram valley, or indeed on the beach. It just needs someone to organise it.

There are no coaching weekends for new pilots
There are no improvement or incentives for pilots who want to improve their rating.

I agree that we could do more.
During my period as chairman we have taken steps forward to improve the club coach element of the club.
A load of us attended the coaching course last year. (And I would point out that the club paid the £20 per head that it cost.... so you got more than your moneys worth last year!)
We now have a letter going out to all new members with details of people to contact.
We have a club coach section on the website.
Who is going to arrange the coaching weekends?

There is a competition secretary who organises 1 comp per year. More scope and lateral thinking required here. No the yearly stuff runs itself.

John is currently in Olu Deniz. I will let him respond to this. However I think he may disagree that "the yearly stuff runs itself"

We've got enough interesting people in the club to listen to without paying high prices for big egos.

Where are they? Why are they not rushing forward to speak at the meetings?
We had a few meetings last year when Ali Guthrie gave presentations. I know that he had spent a lot of time and effort in putting them together. People are not generally prepared to do that. Hence we dont have club mermbers speaking at meetings.
As for big egos, I would refer you to my earlier response about entertainment.

All this is about a change from £15 to £20 in club subs. Yes.... John is right that it represents a 33% increase, but equally it also represents 2 pints of beer a year...... one bottle of wine....... Enough petrol to get you from Blyth to Horden (but not back mind you....)

Does the club really mean that little to you?

What we need is some positive thoughts. Some of the ideas you have come up with are good. It is just a question of putting them into effect. Actions speak louder than words.

[Dave Hume]

So what you're basically saying is if we don't put the club fees up we can't have speakers at the meetings. I can remember when the club fees were about a tenner, the membership was less than it is now and we had speakers nearly every month. I can't remember there being any problems with money to get them there. None of the speakers cost the earth. If we didn't have a speaker we used to have a quiz or daft things like the paper plane competition (remember that?), basically something every month to try and get people to the meetings.

Personally I would pay an extra fiver to have something on every month and then I might come to more meetings and look forward to them the way I used to, but I'm with Kay that this is probably going to put people off, reduce the membership and the club would end up worse off financially in the long run.

[ron freeman]

Its very sad reading all this heated debate about raising club memberships fees... I don't see any reason for raising them ! Its not hard to work out how much our club needs to run annually, correct me if I'm wrong but it should be around the £1000 p.a. mark

£250 web site
£300 whisky & flowers
£200 buffet (corner house)
£200 club bqq
£50 admin ?
total £1000 ?

£1500 membership income

This would leave £500 for guest speakers/sundries.

This does not include the money raised at our annual club auction which is usualy around the £300 mark plus the money generated from our web site ? also income from our £900 site guides....

Prepared to be shot down, as an Honorary member who doesn't pay fees or have voting rights.

[AlastairW]

Thanks Ron.... you have actually set out the expenditure more accurately than I did in my original post.

So by your reckoning we have £500 a year "spends".

Last month we voted for a contribution to the Air Ambulance of £100. By no way unreasonable, but there is 20% of the spends gone.

We have also looked at getting some more club Polo shirts / sweatshirts made. Ok we would get the money back when they are sold, but they would have to be paid for initially. Say 40 sweatshirts at £10 a pop.... £400

There is the £500 gone already.

Now i know you will say that the sweatshirts are a one off expense, and the money would be recovered, but so were the sites guides last year.

All I am suggesting is that we have a little more flexibility by increasing subs by £5.

That then effectively doubles our spending money??

And I am not saying that we cant have speakers Dave... but just look at the financial realities.

And the suggestion for quizzes, paper plane comps etc is excellent. I remember John Wallis's quizzes... they were good fun!

It just needs someone to organise them. Which does actually take quite a lot of effort.

[colin keightley]

To be perfectly honest I think its a bad year to ask for an increase in subs the weather has been crap and log books arnt getting filled I dont know about everyone else but its depressing me not flying and most are going to look at this increase as "whats the point im not flying"

[gary stenhouse]

we have a great club, but been the word.

Its been a hard year for everyone with all the poor flying, so instead we have become polititions and hecklers all the time.

i think its time we took stock and agree to disagree in order to get the club moving in a more positive direction.

we have a club now that in most ways is leeps and bounds the head of otheres.

take the xc league when i first joined 3 years ago most of the flight loggs were more than 15k now we have lots of pilots doing a lot more than that.

what we need to do is gets the subs in for this year and then see how we can increase club funds by other means.

we have all took it for granted, of our chairmans hospitality with pilot exams pilot lectures bbq and much much more. yet it seems sometimes he is getting a hard time when he tried his best to get a bbq going in june due to commitments, yet at the time he could never get a positive response to get commitment. this is the case when ever you try and get people to comit to something. it always comes down to the usual suspects.

my vote is to first of all pay up for this year at 15 pounds and see what we can do for next year.

thumbs up for alister for all his work and long may it last

cheers gary

[Brian Nellist]

[/quote]we have a great club

[brian day]

my vote is to first of all pay up for this year at 15 pounds and see what we can do for next year.

thumbs up for alister for all his work and long may it last

Thanks Gary for a solution to all the back biting and bickering.
Apologies, if I have caused offense to Alistair or Susan and thanks to Ron Don for his pm putting me in the position regarding the free beer.

Thumbs up for Alistair for all his work and long may it last.

[tony anderson]

I belive its time the club should be building up a fighting fund,the land owners who we relie on for our sites are all ageing as we are. We need to look to the future ,new landowners or thier family members may not have an affinity with our sport.Money talks, with a large enough fund prehaps we can gain acsess to our sites during lambing!.A question for Alistar could the club gain charitable status ,that way high end tax payers could make a donation and gain it back from the tax man.I belive our membership fee is a joke , never mind £25 per year it should be £50,with that sort of money we could afford to make sites more accsesible ,gates that open for example.I belive money was paid out for use of a site this year which is only for PG use no problem, but lets have money in the pot so we can have a couple of gates that open at moneylaws for the hanggliders.Lets get real before its too late, lets get our sites on a proper basis and protect them for the future.

[gordie]

Paying for site usage is a slippery slope and once you have committed to this route there will be no turning back and your site fees will increase year on year.

In the Lakes we pay for none of our multitude of sites and never will as it is a strict policy of the CSC. Yes we replace gates, repair tracks, litter pick, keep an eye on stock and generally help our generous landowners when we can, but we will never pay for sites. This policy has seen good benefits and we are one of the few clubs in the u.k. that have free usage of National Trust land, as they know how hard the club works on site negotiations with tenant farmers e.t.c. and do as much as we can to inform pilots of how to responsibly use our site (having an online sites guide!) Increasing membership fees is not an answer to sites problems, contacting the farmers more regularly and earning there respect goes a lot further. How many of you guys knock on a farmers door at your favourite site from time to time to see how they are? Or if you pack up after landing out from an x.c. are you the sort of pilots who runs off into a corner, climbs a fence and runs away like a naughty school kid?

I must say looking at sites problems all over the u.k. for many years I would say a lot of problems are caused by the sites officer/ club not being proactive enough in negations with land owners / farmers e.t.c. and problems often escalate to create a situation where waving cash around becomes an easy but ill though out solution to the problem.

[tony anderson]

I agree lets not pay for sites ,but lets have some money in the kitty so we have some flexibility,for site repairs or to improve the facility ,we only have to look at how poor the track up X Fell has become to realise that the increased use of these sites is going to cause wear and tear, and we should have the means available to do somthing about it.

[ron freeman]

Our club has been going for 34yrs and in that time we have built up a great relationship with all of our tenants and land owners. We know how they feel about us flying on there land and we keep in constant touch with them all the time.

Its interesting reading some of the comments made above from people who have only been in the sport half the time our club has existed !

The same issues keep coming up year after year that our club successfully manages.

Tony, thats a great idea donating to the club (charity) well worth looking into... this would certainly help with track repairs and the odd gate.