Wot No Cumbria

[Martin A]

Yes its offical there are no flying sites in Cumbria but Ron will be happy as Northumberland has four , see http://www.paraglidingearth.com/en-html ... hp?pays=75 If only 4 sites listed for us and the lakes knowing it to be more like 60-70 , the 650 listed for france must be more like 5000. Anyway it's a good web site as long as your not a Cumbrian.

[gordie]

On line sites guides like this are very dangerous as they promote potentially out of date and incorrect information about sites. There is only one place where you should find info on CSC sites and thats on our web site where we can control things. I have spent many times contacting web sites like this one to have our sites info removed, as it is always included with out doing the relevant club the courteous of asking.

The irony of this is born out well by this website as the only CSC site it promotes is Souther, our most sensitive site. Also I find it slightly amusing that the NHPC have an 'anti information' policy for any visiting pilots when it comes to the web and availability of your sites info, yet you get mentioned more then the open and welcoming CSC

[John Wallis]

the NHPC have an 'anti information' policy for any visiting pilots when it comes to the web and availability of your sites info,

It looks terrible when you read facts like this above. Are the Northumbrian's really that miserable and small minded that we can't share our info like the rest of the northern clubs?

[Claire Smith]

I think we are John. That is certainly how it came across to me at the last meeting.

[ron freeman]

What a load of tosh... calling our club 'anti information ' the club voted not to put site informaton on our web site for obvious reasons !

Visitors contact the club...they go out with a current club member or... if you are a BHPA member you can join the club ! and get a site guide. I don't understand how you think this is not friendly ! this its what I call 'safe and sensible'

I'm on Northumbria sites more than most (school) and when I meet visitors they are well looked after (spend some time with them) so I get very annoyed when I read rubbish like this.

[Martin A]

I think that sites like this one are interesting to look at to see where in the world you can fly. Example I didn't know that there was any flying in Latvia but can clik on map see where they are, and then try to find out info from other sources. I agree with Gordie not to use as a site guide to fly but it is nice just to brouse and see whats out there all in one place. If you look at the sites around Gourdon area links the there to the Ozone current site guide which is still mo excuse not to speak with locals/school before flying. Wish I had said nowt as I thought this was a papagliding web site not the school playground .

[ron freeman]

Martin, I am pleased you have highlighted this information because it needs sorting out ! Lordenshawes site... this can only be flown between Nov 1st to March 31st (game keepers agreement) if someone flies this site at any other time we could lose it !

I am currently in negotiations for a site around the corner of Lordenshawe and its the same game keeper.....

Because of the sensitive agreement with Lordenshawe I wonder how it got on this site ?

[gordie]

O.k. as sites officer for the Cumbria Club I think I am in a qualified position to talk about sites access. I do think the NHPC current policy on sites info is unwelcoming and makes you look like an elitist club in the eyes of pilots from outside your area. I personally feel strongly that it is every clubs duty to make there flying sites as open and access to them as easy and straight forward as posable.

By not doing this you guys spend a fortune on a sites guide which is probably out of date before its printed, which you could save much club funds on if it was online. Having it online also will assist in keeping in current, unlike the printed copy.

Ronny you use the excuses of your land owners not wanting there details on the internet, this is a flawed opinion. You do not have to put the land owners details down just the site info, no need to mention land owners by name. Secondly our (CSC) land owners appreciate that an online guide is the way to go due to the accuracy of the info contained with in it. They have this opinion because I go round and explain this to them and the benefits aswell as managing the sites well, communicating with them on a regular basis.

When I have problems with sites I as you know am very pro active at sorting the problem out and trying to prevent it re-accurring i.e. Blease fell, Carrock e.t.c. This does not mean there is a big problem its just good sites management to keep on top of things and it works. I will always promote a land owners wishes above a pilots, but by good negotiation problems are easily iron out. Basically I spend my time fire fighting and stopping the little buggers spreading!

One pro side is that with an open club like the CSC we have gained much respect form pilots around the U.K. and many have now opted to join our club even though it is not necessary. They basically want to support a club which is there for and works hard for flying and its pilots interests and that is what the CSC has.

So come on guys, open your hearts, welcome the rest of your fellow pilots to your wonderful part of this little country of ours and GET YOUR SITES GUIDE ON LINE!!! No Excuses.

[John Wallis]

The trouble now is that the guy who started to do an excellent job on the on-line website doesn't have the time

[brian day]

Bet he'd be the first to jump at the opportunity! All clubs should have the same open policy as the CSC. How about a re vote?

[gary stenhouse]

have you seen this months skywings? speeks volumes on what we our discussing and makes a lot of sence.

we have a poor policy on sites, but you have to admit we must have the best and most vocal and local website. when i first joined i think it took six months to meet another pilot on the hill exept who was in my car. now with the website there is almost certainly a chance of knowing where otheres are going to fly making flying and siting a much more enjoyable day.

if we can put this to the sites guide then i think we have the best club.

mind haven said all that i would say us northunbrians do the most traveling out of any club.

we even get time for tea and scones at the end of the day and a bit of a shoot. mind the crow was a little over cooked alli

[ron freeman]

Gordie, how do you know the opinion of our famers ? our club welcomes anyone to fly here...as long as they are qualified, BHPA current, and they contact a member ( for obvious reasons )

Our sites are kept up to date via the web site (best in the country)
Why are gagging so much to have our sites guide on the net when you never fly here ?

You mention 'don't give farmers details just site info' putting information on site access on farmers land is giving details... and if we do this I have no doubt there will be problems and when we do will you come and sort it out.

The Lake District is a different kettle of fish compared to the Cheviots Hills and it has to approached differently and I know for a fact (not flawed opinion) lots of our farmers will not want their land advertised on the net.. this is where the club steps in and tries to keep everybody happy (the farmers come first )

This club has been going since 1972 ! and we don't have the problems that you seem to have (upset farmers) so we must be doing something right !

[milleboy]

Ron,

Not wanting to get into a debate about wether or not you have a online site guide or not,

but...

To say cumbria has upset farmers and you don't is unfair to Gordy and CSC site officers befor him!

Cumbria get far more traffic, year round. And a bulk of this is 'non local' or visiting pilots (who may or may not be CSC members). The secret local only site we fly have considerably less traffic, and no upset farmers!

[ron freeman]

I never said 'Cumbria' upset farmers I said you have 'problems' with upset farmers... we all know Gordie does a lot of work for the Cumbria club and I bet he would like to spend more time flying than sorting out problems created by pilots who don't read their site guide or just turn up and fly !

I will defend my club to the hilt when I read statments like 'Anti information policy for any visiting pilots & NHPC current policy on sites info is unwelcoming and makes you look like an elitist club !

[Claire Smith]

So what happens when a visiting pilot comes to Northumbria and cannot get access to sites information. He or she calls a couple of numbers from the coaching list and may or may not have any luck. I can, from experience, say that this does happen being a newly qualified CP. What did I do, I travelled past sites in Northumbria and went and flew in the Lakes with Gordie or joined the coaching days.

What would a more experienced pilot do? Pull up at the side of the road, walk up a hill and take off maybe? I have witnessed this on a day when the “happy bus” was on the road, you pilots know who you are!

“Problems” with upset farmers, yes both routes whether open sites or closed sites policies have advantages and disadvantages. If rules are there and are broken at least you have something to beat people about the head with. If rules aren’t there and are broken we have nothing to go back to anyone with if they have been unsuccessful in making contact with a coach.

In my short time flying, most of which has been done in the Lakes I cannot remember hearing of any sites in Cumbria being lost, I’m also very aware of the sensitive sites and I’ve also, on more than one occasion, knocked on the farmers doors, had a chat and been made to feel welcome. Is this because I’m playing by the rules?

Our closed book policy still seems to lose us sites. Namely Cumrew last year and from discussions at the last meeting a site we previously used called Biddlestone? I stand to be corrected if I am wrong on this.

The amount of people who stop and chat when they have seen us fly. Albeit the Lakes have far more tourists and walkers in the area. I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve given out Gordie’s card and chatted to people who are keen to learn more about the sport. I’ve talked to them about going to do a tandem or to try a taster day.

You never know by having more pilots in the Cheviots might actually increase interest in the sport and for you personally Ronnie increase business, not kill it.

[Sergey]

I tend to phone Ronnie whenever I think Northumbria has better weather than we got in Scotland.

I like to talk to him for a bit, but don't want to annoy him and his family too much at weird times of day (take that driving distance into account!)

Therefore, I think I would prefer having an open site guide online, with regularly updated rules.

Didn't vote because I'm not in the club though

[geoff.davison]

I am sure you are all aware how the cumbrians do it but no-one has mentioned it yet in this thread. If there is an issue with a site the traffic lights on the web site change colour until Gordie sorts the issue out. From what I can see this would only work if there is a person prepared to put alot of time and effort in. Is there anyone in Northumbria who can do this?

I have to agree to being in the same situation as Claire after qualifying. Sometimes I was not able to get site advice on the phone so carried on driving to the lakes. Nowadays I rarely fly in the north east partly because of this very reason. I also know of several other pilots in the NE who gladly drive through Northumbria to get to Cumbria.

regards,

Geoff

[AlastairW]

Thanks for the input Geoff. I am concerned at the negative image that NHPC seems to generate with our neighbours.

Gary has referred to the article on the inside cover of this months Skywings, written by the Dales club, about reciprocal rights.

I didnt respond to their letter, I would have been saying "Hey yes of course come and fly our sites, BUT you cant have a sites guide, AND you have to contact a member, AND we are not even going to tell you where the sites are"

Frankly I was to embarrased to reply.

Members have over the past couple of weeks expressed concerns to me over our insular attitude, one example being the sites guide issue.

This has now been raised again.....

I am happy for this issue to be debated at next months meeting, and from the response to the online poll it does appear that there are enough members who would like this to happen.

So if you want to have you say, turn up at the Corner house on 4th July. I anticipate that there will be lots of people wanting to have their say, so will make certain everyone gets a chance.

[ron freeman]

Before this happens Alastair... you will need the ask all of our site owners first ! wether you like it or not they have the last say.

I'm surprised to read 'that you were too embarrassed to reply to
a letter concerning a decision made by the club... I don't understand ?

[AlastairW]

It is in hand Ronnie. Dont worry about it.

As for my embarrassment.... read Skywings Ronnie, and then compare the attitude of the Dales club with our approach. Then maybe you will understand.

[ron freeman]

This club has always welcomed visitors, so whats change ?

I knew about the Dales situation months ago Alastair and it has its problems....irresponsible pilots.

Dont get me wrong, I can see the benifits to all involved but sadly there are others who will use this information so spoilt it for everyone else.

[geoff.davison]

Hi Ronnie,

I think the vast majority of pilots want to fly without upsetting anyone no matter where they are or which club they belong to. The very small number of pilots that will fly at all costs will do so with or without a sites guide.

Without publishing a sites guide there will also be a small number of pilots that will look for a sites guide and if they can't find one will fly anyway. It is not difficult to find out the locations of flying sites but it is difficult to find out the latest details of the site with the current NHPC setup.

Regards,

Geoff

[Henry]

I agree with geoff.

There seem to be two reasons for not putting the siteguide online

1) Loss of revenue from people not bothering to join the Club to get a copy of the site guide

But - 1) Most people like to keep a hard copy anyway in their car etc
2) How many people over the years have just joined for 1 year got the guide and not renewed again ?

Can't see it making much difference financially - It may well widen our membership/cash if more people are made aware of the variety of sites that are on offer

2) The farmers perception that if the site guide is online every Tom Dick and & Harriet are going to turn up - well that perception needs to be managed but :

I don't think it is our role to try and restrict numbers by making it difficult to access information. You can only justify this if it minimises irresponsible use of our sites and :

1) You can anyway join up, get the site guide for occasional use when passing through and never bother making any contact with "senior club people" and fly as irresponsibly as you want
2) Having the latest up to date information available online - will mean there is much less chance of upsetting farmers by otherwise well meaning pilots (the vast majority)

One issue I think this club could do more to address is helping low airtimers like myself become competent flyers as quickly as possible after leaving school - After all we are more likely to be the ones to annoy farmers due to our lack of technique/judgement (failing to top land/landing in the wrong field etc) . As someone who is only able to get out flying fairly infrequently it would really benefit if some dates were organiised in advance for a low airtimers like they do over in the Lakes during the summer -It makes all the difference turning up knowing there is someone who is expecting to help with advice/guidance on a particular day - rather than just turning up at a site as an unknown face & after a quick briefing being left to ones own devices like has happened to me at blease !

Henry

P.S. I am certainly able to help with putting the site guide online if and when the decision gets made

[John Wallis]

but it is difficult to find out the latest details of the site with the current NHPC setup.

Some very valid points from the last few postings.

I think the way we should sell this to the farmers is to ensure that all the site rules we have in place at the moment in hard copy will be transferred to the on-line guide where any changes that the farmers or the club need to make, be it lambing, crops (Long Grass Silage) or whatever can be administered through the on line guide very quickly and there for all to see.

This I would imagine would be seen as a very responsible line to take for the longevity of our sites. Farmer contacts site officer - Site officer contacts on line admin - admin puts it live on line - How quick would that be?

I've heard through the grapevine that there is the possibility of incorporating NOTAMs into the site guide too. How sexy is that?

Maybe we sould get some cards printed for bob Sutherland to hand to the farmers in the Cheviots when he goes to talk to them. All the info the farmer would need to contact Bob or Ron to make any changes. That would look quite professional

Plus how cool would it be to see some pilots from the lakes, North Yorks, or the Dales turn up for a week-ends fyling in the Cheviots? I've been flying nigh on 30 years and I've never seen this apart from the inter-club comps I've helped run.

[Bob Sutherland]

rather than just turning up at a site as an unknown face & after a quick briefing being left to ones own devices like has happened to me at blease !

Henry, Phone the coaches when you've had a look at the forecasts and made your best guess. The lads and lassies in this club are helpful and experienced on our sites and will endeavour to assist you in your "own devices"
The organised events are possibly something the club could consider if there was enough interest but, in the meantime, you have to phone us. Don't be shy, we were all just faces when starting out.

[Sad Northerner]

I think we are missing one very important fact.......who the hell wants to fly our sites?.... I mean ..well lets just say my dog (Shearer) likes licking its balls, having woundered why it enjoys it so much I decided to give it ago but when I tried the dog got all upset and tried to bite me! It needn't have worried though because when I eventually got round to it I decided that it really wasn't my sort of thing.....needless to say life goes on and nothing much has changed.


Ali

[Kitt Rudd]

Ali mate,
I can always rely on you to take a slightly different slant on the situation - did make me smile, not that i have ever experienced your situation.
kitt

[Claire Smith]

The posts now seem to have merged into one on the subject and I find it quite amusing that this debate is taking place within the public area of the website.

I’m sure other pilots who may visit the public area of our site are having a right good chuckle to themselves. The elite club who think all and sundry will descend on the Cheviot Hills to rape and pillage the villages and land owners, doesn’t it just sound like a scene from Dick Turpin. Only joking of course.

As far as irresponsible pilots go like it has been said there is nothing to stop an irresponsible pilot from joining the Club. Do we all not show just a little bit irresponsibility at times if it means we could get those extra few minutes in the air or the extra few kilometres on that XC.

I have witnessed some of our club members not abiding by site rules which they do have access to. Wrong landing fields being used when flying in Cumbria or turning up at Lords Seat and flying before contacting the farmer to get permission. We may all be guilty of bending the rules.

If irresponsible pilots don’t observe the sites rules what do we do, ask them not to fly here? Not let them renew their membership? Confiscate the site guide they have paid for when they aren’t looking? Have a word with them and hope that they don’t do it again?

I think a lot of my concern about our Clubs image goes beyond the fact that we don’t have an online sites guide. If a potential new member joined the last club meeting with a view that paragliding or hang gliding is an exciting sport, would they have left the meeting with a different view? I personally think they would have left thinking they had stumbled in on the local WI meeting by mistake.

Ronnie, I stand corrected on the Biddlestone issue, my apologies and I agree sites are extremely important to the club and not just your business.

Yes I will admit that I fly most of the time in Cumbria. Why, they do more for low airtime pilots like me. I know more of the sites there because it’s where I learnt and basically because there is a larger number of sites to choose from. Because of that larger choice of sites I guess I’m in the majority with a lot of other NHPC members who would favour the Lakes above the Cheviots. Again I stand to be corrected on this.

The Club may have been going strong for 33 years but it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t move with the times, let’s be more open and welcoming and let’s grow this sport we are all so passionate about. After all things do move on………the Bay City Rollers were big in 1974 but it doesn’t mean airwave and gin are still stocking tartan flying suits, Kevin Keegan did a grand job for Liverpool 33 years ago but would he do the same job now?

I think I’ve said enough and made my feeling known, I shall now look forward to the next Club meeting when I hope that everyone will get a chance to express their views in an open honest manner and we get to a conclusion that satisfies us all.

[AlastairW]

airwave and gin are still stocking tartan flying suits,

Claire Claire Claire????? where can I get one.......????

More Importantly where can Bob Get one?

Do they come with a detachable kilt??

As for the other less important stuff.... I agree!

[AlastairW]

I knew about the Dales situation months ago Alastair and it has its problems....irresponsible pilots.

Would you care to expand on this statement Ronnie?

Because funnily enough the Dales Sites Officer knows nothing about it.....