Calling all Babadag Bandits, finally, heres the video of my lovely stall and pleasant dip in the sea
Jill's SIV video
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jill mcgeachie
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Jill's SIV video
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0MJjGT0fT-4
Calling all Babadag Bandits, finally, heres the video of my lovely stall and pleasant dip in the sea
Calling all Babadag Bandits, finally, heres the video of my lovely stall and pleasant dip in the sea
This my year - 2009!
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John Wallis
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a horrible incident that came out well in the end. Nice video Jill.-
gary stenhouse
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jill mcgeachie
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Was too busy talking to myself about what I could do to get out of it 
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gary stenhouse
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not stiring it or anything but how many times did he say throw it? when you think this was under strict instruction to throw it you still did not. and my guessing is when you get in a real situation your hearing shuts off and you focus goes on the problem in hand . if this had been at a 1000 ft you would of died. i am not nocking it but it is a lesson.
if in doubt throw it out as if you dont you may never get the chance again.
cheers gary
if in doubt throw it out as if you dont you may never get the chance again.
cheers gary
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Bob Sutherland
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As a hang glider driver i found the video exciting viewing. Regaining control in a (SAT???) spin, spiral????????? Whatever, i think the lady did well, as for not throwing the chute, loads of height, over water, not exactly a rapid descent.
I bet if it was over hard stuff the chute would've been out before Jocky had finished the word "reserve"
Well done Jill.
I bet if it was over hard stuff the chute would've been out before Jocky had finished the word "reserve"
Well done Jill.
Handle every stressful situation like a dog.
If you can't eat it or play with it,
Just pee on it and walk away.
If you can't eat it or play with it,
Just pee on it and walk away.
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gary stenhouse
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i am not knocking the outcome or how ell jill done to get the glider back under control.
if you are one of the few people in the club who have sated a paraglider you will know that it is very dificult to one read your instrumeants or see the ground.as you are flying backwords.
if you read the pg forums you will see how man deaths this year that would of been preventibleif only they had thrown there reserve.
this is a great training video as there is much to learn from it, the next time you our out flying feel for your reserve and get to know it well as it is your lifeline. if you have never sated before or deep spiraled which i guess most havn't then if it ever happens react and throw it, it is easier to think about what if i stayed in it and hit the ground on your ride to the ground.
just remember 90% of the flying in the uk is at less than 300ft of te ground
happy flying
if you are one of the few people in the club who have sated a paraglider you will know that it is very dificult to one read your instrumeants or see the ground.as you are flying backwords.
if you read the pg forums you will see how man deaths this year that would of been preventibleif only they had thrown there reserve.
this is a great training video as there is much to learn from it, the next time you our out flying feel for your reserve and get to know it well as it is your lifeline. if you have never sated before or deep spiraled which i guess most havn't then if it ever happens react and throw it, it is easier to think about what if i stayed in it and hit the ground on your ride to the ground.
just remember 90% of the flying in the uk is at less than 300ft of te ground
happy flying
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John Wallis
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I still can't make my mind up about the S.I.V course. Part of me says Yes I've learned things that will help me in a situation providing I've got the height and presence of mind to react. The the other half of me says it is a very radical course to do and very dangerous even over the water with a boat. Some of the maneuvers really are mental and I can't imagine ever having the glider anywhere near some of them.
I would appreciate any ones view of an S.I.V to see if I can get my mind right boss........
I would appreciate any ones view of an S.I.V to see if I can get my mind right boss........
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jill mcgeachie
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Sorry Gary, but I disagree with your post. When Jocky was telling me to throw the reserve if I couldnt get out, I could see the sea and how much height I actually had even without a vario. (I also think that Jocky would've shouted a lot harder if i was in any danger or he thought I was too low). Its amazing looking back and remembering that when I was in the situation I was very calm and talked myself through what I had learned on the course, which is why going to Johns post, yes I think the SIV is invaluable as if i'd been there before the course I probs wouldnt be writiing this today.
If I had gotten any lower I would've chucked it without Jocky telling me and was ready to, but I knew I still had height to try. If I'd been out on the hill 300 ft off the ground it would've been straight out, no messing. Even now, because I've chucked it, if i got into trouble and was low I'd throw my reserve, it saves lives.
If I had gotten any lower I would've chucked it without Jocky telling me and was ready to, but I knew I still had height to try. If I'd been out on the hill 300 ft off the ground it would've been straight out, no messing. Even now, because I've chucked it, if i got into trouble and was low I'd throw my reserve, it saves lives.
This my year - 2009!
I see these SIV's as a little bit trying to cram years of experiance into 7 days ...
You learn to fly your wing at your own pace and it takes much more than one week to master even one of thre manovers done. You could spend the whole week doing wing overs and you might come away with something that might be slightly worth while.. But the reality of it is that unless you practice every time you go out flying any maneuver is going to be so far from your ability that you may as well not bother.
Yes this country is not the best place to practice but if you want to throw your wing about then your going to have to practice here. Your going to have to teach yourself, as its you who is pulling the strings. This notion that you only can do a wing over or any maneuver if someone is filling your ears with instructions is rubbish. You-Tube is full of these sorts of disasters.
Like any activity to do with balance and feel, PERSONAL EXPERIANCE is the only way, for me personaly. Once you have the basics to TO, fly straight, turn and land your then on your own to really learn how to fly.
On the should she should'nt she. Jill you paid for an SIV course to which you then chose to ignor instruction. I have no doubt Jocky has see a few senarios like yours, he told you to throw, simple as that. But you have to be comended for having the balls to go it alown, wonder what convo would be here if you didnt get it out>=!
I see Gaz's point that if it was him who had done that there would be a different smell to this thred. Gaz done his own DIY SIV, and I recall much rising of eyebrows. I guess the thing to remember is who taught these acro pilots? themselfs me thinks. OR did someone talk the first guy who done a tumble? EXPERIANCE and its all about baby steps for me.
You learn to fly your wing at your own pace and it takes much more than one week to master even one of thre manovers done. You could spend the whole week doing wing overs and you might come away with something that might be slightly worth while.. But the reality of it is that unless you practice every time you go out flying any maneuver is going to be so far from your ability that you may as well not bother.
Yes this country is not the best place to practice but if you want to throw your wing about then your going to have to practice here. Your going to have to teach yourself, as its you who is pulling the strings. This notion that you only can do a wing over or any maneuver if someone is filling your ears with instructions is rubbish. You-Tube is full of these sorts of disasters.
Like any activity to do with balance and feel, PERSONAL EXPERIANCE is the only way, for me personaly. Once you have the basics to TO, fly straight, turn and land your then on your own to really learn how to fly.
On the should she should'nt she. Jill you paid for an SIV course to which you then chose to ignor instruction. I have no doubt Jocky has see a few senarios like yours, he told you to throw, simple as that. But you have to be comended for having the balls to go it alown, wonder what convo would be here if you didnt get it out>=!
I see Gaz's point that if it was him who had done that there would be a different smell to this thred. Gaz done his own DIY SIV, and I recall much rising of eyebrows. I guess the thing to remember is who taught these acro pilots? themselfs me thinks. OR did someone talk the first guy who done a tumble? EXPERIANCE and its all about baby steps for me.
Everything in moderation, including moderation.
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gary stenhouse
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the simple fact is that either were you would of died by drowning as you lost 2-3000 feet as you did get it out but it imediately went back in then you got it out leaving you to low.
as you point out you would of thrown it imediately in the uk or if you were over land. this is what i want to here but the truth is i have been close 2 years ago to throwing were i failed a wingover at carlton my wing cravated as i fell through and imediatley spiraled. i got away with only because 1 i had spiraled many times and reckognised where my weight was in my harness. also the wind was strong ans my drift was taken me back into the hill but i did look at my reserve and made the choice. though i must admit although i did not think i was going to die i did think this is going to hurt.
would a siv help i think not as i did not see anyone do spirals of any real sink rate. you can not get good at anything in a few fly downs with the knowledge of the back up of boats and radios. the only thing in real life that will save you is instinct as there will not be any time for anything else and of course luck.
as you point out you would of thrown it imediately in the uk or if you were over land. this is what i want to here but the truth is i have been close 2 years ago to throwing were i failed a wingover at carlton my wing cravated as i fell through and imediatley spiraled. i got away with only because 1 i had spiraled many times and reckognised where my weight was in my harness. also the wind was strong ans my drift was taken me back into the hill but i did look at my reserve and made the choice. though i must admit although i did not think i was going to die i did think this is going to hurt.
would a siv help i think not as i did not see anyone do spirals of any real sink rate. you can not get good at anything in a few fly downs with the knowledge of the back up of boats and radios. the only thing in real life that will save you is instinct as there will not be any time for anything else and of course luck.
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jill mcgeachie
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Both points above taken and I agree with you totally, all I wanted to do is share my experience with you and learn from it. But my experience in the SIV has taught me the things to do if I get into trouble, We all know what to do but as Gary says unless you've been in it, it just seems like a far off possibility that its gonne happen to you.
I didnt ignore Jockys instruction, he told me to throw my reserve "if I couldn't get it out" well he taught me I could, if i felt i couldn't and was getting too low, the reserve would've been straight out.
I have more confidence flying now than i ever had, and I still stand by the SIV for that. You dont often get the chance to throw your glider around in England, and for the sake of a few hundred quid to give me peace of mind and feel like a better pilot, considering what we all spend on this sport, then to me it was money well spent.
I'm sick of taking baby steps, I wanted more confidence and a better understanding of my glider, now i've got that.
Happy safe flying to us all
I didnt ignore Jockys instruction, he told me to throw my reserve "if I couldn't get it out" well he taught me I could, if i felt i couldn't and was getting too low, the reserve would've been straight out.
I have more confidence flying now than i ever had, and I still stand by the SIV for that. You dont often get the chance to throw your glider around in England, and for the sake of a few hundred quid to give me peace of mind and feel like a better pilot, considering what we all spend on this sport, then to me it was money well spent.
I'm sick of taking baby steps, I wanted more confidence and a better understanding of my glider, now i've got that.
Happy safe flying to us all
This my year - 2009!
The value of doing an SIV………
I am a huge believer in "comfort zones" and the assurance they can give you.
And that is really what an SIV course is about. Intentionally collapsing your wing in stable conditions over the water in Olu Deniz is NEVER going to be the same as having a collapse when you are thermalling in rough and gnarly air.
BUT having done an SIV you will know what is likely to happen with your wing. You know that you can even fly straight and level with half of the wing collapsed, and therefore as far as I am concerned it removes that "Oh shit Oh fcuk fcuk" moment of panic, which is often the point where the pilot will over react and cause greater problems than the initial collapse.
What else do you learn? That the control range on the glider is far far greater than you will have used flying in the UK, and that often the glider will fly better with strong positive inputs rather than tentative dabs on the brakes. By way of example watch Russel Ogden flying on the "Performance Flying" video. His brake inputs are firm and positive, even when doing fairly radical manouvers.
Full Stalls…… The scariest part of the SIV, and something that is worth experiencing, although hopefully you would never have to use. After one SIV all that you will get is an understanding of what happens, and probably a great desire not to repeat the experience to soon.
BUT ultimatley it is the get out of jail card, the Ctrl-Alt-Del of a paraglider. After the Babadag bandits left I had a couple of days playing at being an acro pilot, and trying to do Helicopters. After one particularly messy one the wing came out cravated like Jills, and entered a fairly rapid spiral, which I eventually stalled out, after taking two wraps on the outer brake. As far as I was concerned it was one of the most useful things I did during the week, as I now know that it can be done, if neccesary, and if there is sufficient height.
Spiral dives...... I have been in conditions where I have had to spiral down to escape cloud suck. Being in that position is bloody terrifying to start with, and that would not be the point at which I wanted to start learning how to spiral. Been there, done it, and it is something i can use in an emergency, and from which I know how to recover. If you have not done an SIV, chances are you have not done a proper spiral.
I believe an SIV should be compulsory as part of your pilot rating. If it prevents someone having an accident because they have been trained in the manoeuvre already, then it is totally worthwhile.
I am a huge believer in "comfort zones" and the assurance they can give you.
And that is really what an SIV course is about. Intentionally collapsing your wing in stable conditions over the water in Olu Deniz is NEVER going to be the same as having a collapse when you are thermalling in rough and gnarly air.
BUT having done an SIV you will know what is likely to happen with your wing. You know that you can even fly straight and level with half of the wing collapsed, and therefore as far as I am concerned it removes that "Oh shit Oh fcuk fcuk" moment of panic, which is often the point where the pilot will over react and cause greater problems than the initial collapse.
What else do you learn? That the control range on the glider is far far greater than you will have used flying in the UK, and that often the glider will fly better with strong positive inputs rather than tentative dabs on the brakes. By way of example watch Russel Ogden flying on the "Performance Flying" video. His brake inputs are firm and positive, even when doing fairly radical manouvers.
Full Stalls…… The scariest part of the SIV, and something that is worth experiencing, although hopefully you would never have to use. After one SIV all that you will get is an understanding of what happens, and probably a great desire not to repeat the experience to soon.
BUT ultimatley it is the get out of jail card, the Ctrl-Alt-Del of a paraglider. After the Babadag bandits left I had a couple of days playing at being an acro pilot, and trying to do Helicopters. After one particularly messy one the wing came out cravated like Jills, and entered a fairly rapid spiral, which I eventually stalled out, after taking two wraps on the outer brake. As far as I was concerned it was one of the most useful things I did during the week, as I now know that it can be done, if neccesary, and if there is sufficient height.
Spiral dives...... I have been in conditions where I have had to spiral down to escape cloud suck. Being in that position is bloody terrifying to start with, and that would not be the point at which I wanted to start learning how to spiral. Been there, done it, and it is something i can use in an emergency, and from which I know how to recover. If you have not done an SIV, chances are you have not done a proper spiral.
I believe an SIV should be compulsory as part of your pilot rating. If it prevents someone having an accident because they have been trained in the manoeuvre already, then it is totally worthwhile.
It is sad to measure your life in terms of hours flown...... but even sadder not to.........
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Stuart Bertram
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Remote Control
What people who have not done the SIV do not realise is that the actual manoeuvres are only a small part of the course.
The reason why Jocky's courses are so good is that before you fly you are given a full briefing of what you are about to do, what might happen and what to do if all hell breaks loose.
You then go and do it
The course is structured in such a way that your confidence increases gradually and your understanding increases at the same rate. If the group were asked to start on a full stall there would be 50% of people who just would not do it and half of the remaining would end up in the sea.
After each flight there is a thorough debriefing where you are told what happened and why and what to change.
This is a group course so not only do you learn from feedback on your own flight but also through everyone else on the course.
When you are in the manoeuvre there seems to be a feeling that you are just a remote control drone with Jocky saying pull this pull that. In reality it is YOU up there and it is YOU that must decide what to do if things go pear shaped. Jocky just tells you how to do it.
If you had been asleep during the briefings then you may have to rely on the instructions alone however if you are in the wide awake club then you do what you have been trained to do YOURSELF as if this happens in the future then Jocky will not be there.
If Jocky was concerned about what was happening then he would use a firmer instruction or even the tone burst on the radio (he tells you this before hand).
Like Alistair I believe that everyone should do a fully structured course like this as it may save their life at some stage as they will intuitively know how to sort out the problem with their glider.
People say that if things happen then you just put your hands up, well this will not really work if you get a full frontal whilst below takeoff and heading towards the hill as happened to me at Cross Fell on a fairly benign day.
It is a shame that people like John are not sure whether they gained from the course this year however this may be due to taking it too early in his floppy experience or possibly because the group was too large and so people were rushed through the flights - this is not the norm.
Jocky’s SIV Course is five star in my opinion but only when you are ready to gain from it.
Stuart
The reason why Jocky's courses are so good is that before you fly you are given a full briefing of what you are about to do, what might happen and what to do if all hell breaks loose.
You then go and do it
The course is structured in such a way that your confidence increases gradually and your understanding increases at the same rate. If the group were asked to start on a full stall there would be 50% of people who just would not do it and half of the remaining would end up in the sea.
After each flight there is a thorough debriefing where you are told what happened and why and what to change.
This is a group course so not only do you learn from feedback on your own flight but also through everyone else on the course.
When you are in the manoeuvre there seems to be a feeling that you are just a remote control drone with Jocky saying pull this pull that. In reality it is YOU up there and it is YOU that must decide what to do if things go pear shaped. Jocky just tells you how to do it.
If you had been asleep during the briefings then you may have to rely on the instructions alone however if you are in the wide awake club then you do what you have been trained to do YOURSELF as if this happens in the future then Jocky will not be there.
If Jocky was concerned about what was happening then he would use a firmer instruction or even the tone burst on the radio (he tells you this before hand).
Like Alistair I believe that everyone should do a fully structured course like this as it may save their life at some stage as they will intuitively know how to sort out the problem with their glider.
People say that if things happen then you just put your hands up, well this will not really work if you get a full frontal whilst below takeoff and heading towards the hill as happened to me at Cross Fell on a fairly benign day.
It is a shame that people like John are not sure whether they gained from the course this year however this may be due to taking it too early in his floppy experience or possibly because the group was too large and so people were rushed through the flights - this is not the norm.
Jocky’s SIV Course is five star in my opinion but only when you are ready to gain from it.
Stuart
When to chuck your washing
Good example of when you should throw a reserve and how quick ones reactions should be.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=r3RcvUvGc ... re=related
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=r3RcvUvGc ... re=related
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ron freeman
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Stuart Bertram
Stuart Bertram.... some good reading there, can you tell me more about your full frontal on Crossfell in benign conditions ?
Cheers.
Cheers.
Maximise your time & dosh do both Hanggliding & Paragliding
Some one tell me what happened before I have sleepless nights!Good example of when you should throw a reserve and how quick ones reactions should be.
Looked to me like a little pitch control problem, then
I hope it was a comp wing, or something very unstable 
See you out there!!!!!
Surf crazed and dazed
Livetrack24 Nezzy01
Surf crazed and dazed
Livetrack24 Nezzy01
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John Wallis
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gary stenhouse
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Sorry for giving you nightmares Brian.
O.K. Looking at the sky its earlyish (sun at an angle), the sky is very developed, looking like it will overdevelop soon. So very thermic day.
Glider quite high performance with a comp number on it. Pilot not very active bit of a passenger rather then pilot.
The glider is pitched forward but he does not apply any brake to stop it, leading to a symmetric collapse. This comes out unevenly and locks into rotation very quickly, leaving the pilot behind and twisting his lines and risers. At this point he immediately reaches for his reserve and throws it. If he had not with the twist in the risers and the lack of altitude he almost certainly would of hit hard.
Personally I would always try and sort a problem out with my glider first before throwing the washing, but I do trust my ability and have a good feel for where the glider is and what it is doing. However as this video showed if you are close to the ground and you feel 'out of control' then throw you reserve with out hesitation. If you find yourself thinking about it then it is probably to late it should be instinctive.
So next time your out flying, practise reaching for the reserve handle, get to know exactly where it is and then practise your throw action.
However this sort of situation is very unlikely and hopefully will never happen. For example if you were all on that site that day I think you would of all already made the decision not to fly looking at the conditions. Either that or send Gary as wind dummy, and then go to the pub.
O.K. Looking at the sky its earlyish (sun at an angle), the sky is very developed, looking like it will overdevelop soon. So very thermic day.
Glider quite high performance with a comp number on it. Pilot not very active bit of a passenger rather then pilot.
The glider is pitched forward but he does not apply any brake to stop it, leading to a symmetric collapse. This comes out unevenly and locks into rotation very quickly, leaving the pilot behind and twisting his lines and risers. At this point he immediately reaches for his reserve and throws it. If he had not with the twist in the risers and the lack of altitude he almost certainly would of hit hard.
Personally I would always try and sort a problem out with my glider first before throwing the washing, but I do trust my ability and have a good feel for where the glider is and what it is doing. However as this video showed if you are close to the ground and you feel 'out of control' then throw you reserve with out hesitation. If you find yourself thinking about it then it is probably to late it should be instinctive.
So next time your out flying, practise reaching for the reserve handle, get to know exactly where it is and then practise your throw action.
However this sort of situation is very unlikely and hopefully will never happen. For example if you were all on that site that day I think you would of all already made the decision not to fly looking at the conditions. Either that or send Gary as wind dummy, and then go to the pub.
And I didn't think we were that transparent!Either that or send Gary as wind dummy, and then go to the pub.
Thanks for the explanation. I hadn't picked up the clues of time of day, and wasn't sure about the wing, (not long enough in the sport to pick up the subtleties, but I will add them to the database)
cheers.
See you out there!!!!!
Surf crazed and dazed
Livetrack24 Nezzy01
Surf crazed and dazed
Livetrack24 Nezzy01
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Stuart Bertram
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Stealth Wing
You missed the whole point of the video that Gordy posted.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=r3RcvUvGc ... re=related
The pilot did this on purpose to allow footage to get out from Russia of the new stealth wing.
If you go to the last section of the clip you will see a pilot flying a stealth wing pass from right to left towards the reserve.
You can see the reclined harness but where is the wing???
Gary you just have to get one of these !!!
Stuart
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=r3RcvUvGc ... re=related
The pilot did this on purpose to allow footage to get out from Russia of the new stealth wing.
If you go to the last section of the clip you will see a pilot flying a stealth wing pass from right to left towards the reserve.
You can see the reclined harness but where is the wing???
Gary you just have to get one of these !!!
Stuart