Important - CAA & Mode 'S' transponders

ron freeman · Post by **ron freeman** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:32 pm

Have read and pass this on to other pilots.

Happy free flying.

ron freeman · Post by **ron freeman** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:37 pm

This might be better

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:37 pm

We should really be giving this our attention because it will severely restrict our sport or maybe even finish it as we know it.

Mode S transponders which are fitted to aircraft work using secondary radar instead of primary. Primary radar is one that picks up info from most things that are in the sky like aircraft big flocks of birds even weather some things better than others. Secondary radar uses the information from the transponder and tells ATC information about that aircraft including height which is quite handy to them.

The trouble is at the moment the physical size of these devices which also need power wiring and aerials to operate plus I guess they would need servicing and calibrating on a regular basis. The size of the transponders I've used are about the size of a car radio. So with all the extras would be almost impossible on a paraglider and troublesome on a hang glider. The transponder alone costs around £2000

If this all gets the go ahead will we end up needing an air band transceiver RT licence a transponder and permission from ATC while flying our gliders the sport will be doomed.

We need to stop being in ostrich mode and show we want to fly the skies. Do nothing but wait our great sport might disappear.

We could put on a large club bus and go to the Pocklington meeting and show we care........or do nothing.

Pocklington (Wolds GC) Friday 11th April

What's your views?

Below is a mode s transponder without battery wiring and aerial.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:51 pm

Ill travel down.
any one want a lift?

RonDon · Post by **RonDon** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:20 pm

Count me in we must try and stop this one ???

RonDon

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:07 am

I'll give you a blow up doll, (fingers says he's got one!

) because I would come too, but I'm in France playing on the slippy stuff. Give a big shout for me boys

Dave Hume · Post by **Dave Hume** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:22 am

As I understand it the proposals at the moment are that Mode S will only be mandatory in controlled airspace, mandatory transponder zones and for international flight. The trouble for us is no-one knows what areas they may make mandatory transponder zones and they could stick them right in the path of the best XC routes.

Misk · Post by **Misk** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:30 am

Chatting to JW yesterday about this I understand some of you are planning to go to the pocklington meeting. There was a meeting on this subject in Scotland on Thursday. I couldn't attend but Tony McQueen posted this summary on the SMPC forum, you might find it interesting..........

http://groups.google.com/group/Scottish ... ing?lnk=li

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hi Everybody,

http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=810&pagetype=90

Following on from this notification Myself, Steve, Richard and Mike attended the meeting last night. It was a very well attended meeting from the Gliding association with standing room only. It would take too long to go over all the points but in simplistic terms here is the main issue

Growth in air traffic means that the CAA has been tasked in ensuring safety, Mode S transponders are one option.

The CAA are carrying out their consultations in order to get feedback on all affected stakeholders (us) and invite comment on the proposals for change, these comments MUST be lodged before 1700hrs on the 31st May 2008.

The proposals at the moment do not affect us (in general) unless we fly in controlled airspace or above 10000 feet.

I would invite everyone who has a comment to make to lodge it with the CAA, they expressed their viewpoint that they would rather see 3000 individual comments offering different information rather than 3000 scripted replies, this consultation is not a vote or a referendum but OUR opportunity to explain how we use and interact with others in the skies above Scotland. It was also clear from the discussions last night that they have not clearly understood "gaggle" flying even although they had computer modeled it.

I feel really sorry for free flying in the south east of England because I think they are going to be stuffed due to the present levels of restricted airspace and potentially it's increases but in Scotland, Northumberland and Wales we should be left unaffected. We need to describe how the increase in weight/cost etc will impact on our recreational activity and also where we normally fly and at what altitudes. They are also interested in hearing how the local economies would suffer if our activity was curtailed. These rationales also apply if you fly paramotors and powered hang gliders. The CAA estimate the cost of a mode S transponder to be approximately £3-5000 and they are requiring that they should be at least 30w

The best we can hope for is that a record of where we fly and our cross country activity is logged in order that we maintain as much free airspace as possible. The CAA are on our side when it comes to accessing airspace but they need to know where we fly.

An example of a response!!!!!

I am a paraglider pilot who purchases a new glider every three years at approximately £1800. I spend 10 weekends a year in and around Fort William staying in B&B spending £50-80 per weekend in the local economy. For safety reasons I fly close to the upper weight range of my glider. Adding a mode S to my cost would STOP me flying due to the increased costs and weight, the local economy would be affected because I am not spending money there.

When I am flying I routinely fly from Ben Nevis to Glencoe reaching altitudes in excess of 10000 ft, restricting me to below 10000 will prevent me from flying this course as I will be to low to ensure a safe passage from Nevis to Glencoe. I also take part in competition flying where groups of gliders routinely reach 10000ft and our competitions are based in the Borders, Grampians etc

I think you get the idea, the more they hear from us about our potential activity the more we can protect our ability to achieve it.

One last comment, we asked if the BHPA had been consulted on this and were told yes, the CAA were surprised that the consultation meetings appear not to have been circulated by the BHPA. I can understand that the BHPA might be focused on ensuring continued flying in the SE of England but what became clearer last night was that the CAA can recommend that Scotland remains unaffected by these proposals because they are not needed. We now have a chance to state our case

It might be useful if each group on this forum logged a contact with the CAA for notification on airspace changes etc and then we would be kept in touch with.

I hope this helps.

Tony

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:27 pm

That's most helpful Ian. If I've read it correct the bit that would concern us most would be the section (Mode S required in "Any airspace" but not required below FL100 (10000 feet) That won't effect most of us at the moment until they find out what height our flying is done at ....Then they might change the flight level to say FL30 then what?
It's still worth our members making a point to the CAA as individuals mode.s@caa.co.uk and emailing how it would effect us a para and hang glider pilots. How the local flying schools economies pubs B&Bs etc would be effected if this ever got to the stage where it stopped our flying. This consultation is on going and the flight levels/airspace/location will probably be changing all of the time.

Take the time to write an email to the address posted. It might just make a difference.

Below is cut from the main post with some facts that might effect us.

http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=810&pagetype=90 Read the bits high lighted in blue

mode.s@caa.co.uk

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:36 pm

My email is winging it's way through cyberspace in the hope to keep flying free.

ron freeman · Post by **ron freeman** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:40 pm

E-mail done... hope every member will send one in, it only take 5mins.

Happy free roaming flips

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:43 pm

I phoned a local company Dave and I can get a 20 /25/35 seater £12.00 per head return to Pocklington. But I fear the interest won't be there from the response, either that or people may want to do their own thing. Maltby and I are going down and Neil and Ron Don have shown interest.

It all depends if you are passionate about your freedom to fly.....I am.

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:56 pm

I would be up for a trip away on the pop, erm I meen yes we could also do some protesting to boot.

If there's a bus/pony/cart I will be happy to be on it.

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:00 pm

I would be up for a trip away on the pop, erm I meen yes we could also do some protesting to boot.

If there's a bus/pony/cart I will be happy to be on it.

We would need a minimum of 20 people Steve. As it stands the people who have shown an interest will be making their own way down.

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:28 pm

Like I say John, If there's a bus/pony/cart I will be happy to be on it.

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:54 am

As I said earlier, I'm away in France but I'm sure Steve can be loud enough and give a shout for me.
I've sent an email, done all I can.
Now come on you arm chair flyers get off your buts and save our sport!

Pete Batey · Post by **Pete Batey** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:29 pm

Tony wrote: An example of a response!!!!!

I am a paraglider pilot who purchases a new glider every three years at approximately £1800. I spend 10 weekends a year in and around Fort William staying in B&B spending £50-80 per weekend in the local economy. For safety reasons I fly close to the upper weight range of my glider. Adding a mode S to my cost would STOP me flying due to the increased costs and weight, the local economy would be affected because I am not spending money there.

When I am flying I routinely fly from Ben Nevis to Glencoe reaching altitudes in excess of 10000 ft, restricting me to below 10000 will prevent me from flying this course as I will be to low to ensure a safe passage from Nevis to Glencoe. I also take part in competition flying where groups of gliders routinely reach 10000ft and our competitions are based in the Borders, Grampians etc

I think you get the idea, the more they hear from us about our potential activity the more we can protect our ability to achieve it.

One last comment, we asked if the BHPA had been consulted on this and were told yes, the CAA were surprised that the consultation meetings appear not to have been circulated by the BHPA. I can understand that the BHPA might be focused on ensuring continued flying in the SE of England but what became clearer last night was that the CAA can recommend that Scotland remains unaffected by these proposals because they are not needed. We now have a chance to state our case

It might be useful if each group on this forum logged a contact with the CAA for notification on airspace changes etc and then we would be kept in touch with.

I hope this helps.

Tony

It would be worth pointing out that the British Hang gliding Team were victorious last year. These sort of proposals put continued success on the world stage at risk.
Pete

Post by **colin keightley** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:31 pm

If you manage to get the numbers for a coach then me and Alan Westmoreland would be interested

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:56 pm

I spoke to Bll Young who is the treasurer of the Pocklington Gliding Club today and he would be delighted if we turned up. The more the merrier were his words.

The way I'm looking at this is if we don't show some kind of support and the CAA decide in their wisdom a few years from now to restrict us, at least we can say we tried. If any Cumbrians North Yorks or Dales are reading this you would do well to rally your members too.

http://www.wolds-gliding.org/contacts_frame.htm

Steve.T. · Post by **Steve.T.** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:22 am

My email s been sent but I can`t join the trip to Pocklington,its my50th that day and my family have plans for me.How about a petition of support from all our members to take along with you to show the strength of feeling as the numbers representing the club may not be that many.

NHPC Private and Public Forum

Important - CAA & Mode 'S' transponders

Important - CAA & Mode 'S' transponders

Try this copy

CAA meeting

E-mail done

Re: CAA meeting