Winter XC league current standings ?

[Fingers]

According to this there is only one cup for PG or HG

http://www.nhpc.org.uk/cups.php

Mike Smith Memorial Trophy

[ron freeman]

Don't forget the ''Over all Club Champion trophy '' this can be won by hanggliders or paragliders.

Steve I think you are right, OLC is the way to go for everybody.

[John Wallis]

Which one is it to be Ronnie?

All open distance end of story,

Steve I think you are right, OLC is the way to go for everybody

Iv'e now had time to check the scoring system out and feel it would be better to stick with OLC for everything.

This week I've mainly been changing the scoring system

Don't miss the next episode of Freeman's comp rules voted by himself...... Next......OLC 3 point scoring.......

Many congrat's to Neil and Alan as it appears they have won the Winter XC leagues using OLC scoring that was voted on by the vast majority of the club. From tomorrow their scores will be carried on using open distance KM for the summer season. Anyone not happy with this can vote on a change at the end of the season. I wish you all a fantastic summer of XC flying and hope many local records on both hang gliding and paragliding are broken.

Cheers

John

[ron freeman]

Yet again more clap trap...this was proposed by you John as we all know !
your proposal was put through and voted on all in the space of 3-5 mins with no time to think about the changes...we should be using one scoring system for all flights...wether you think winter XC flights are micky mouse has no reference whats so ever to scoring...the system we use should be consistant & fair.

You say klick on the open distance from 'April' for the Summer XC league all you are doing is now scoring all you flights from 1st Jan this is not consistant or fair.

*Whatever I can't be bothered with you*.


Congrats on todays flying Gary

Make your mind up John...

[ron freeman]

Which one is it to be Ronnie?

All open distance end of story,

Steve I think you are right, OLC is the way to go for everybody

Iv'e now had time to check the scoring system out and feel it would be better to stick with OLC for everything.

This week I've mainly been changing the scoring system

Don't miss the next episode of Freeman's comp rules voted by himself...... Next......OLC 3 point scoring.......

Many congrat's to Neil and Alan as it appears they have won the Winter XC leagues using OLC scoring that was voted on by the vast majority of the club. From tomorrow their scores will be carried on using open distance KM for the summer season. Anyone not happy with this can vote on a change at the end of the season. I wish you all a fantastic summer of XC flying and hope many local records on both hang gliding and paragliding are broken.

Cheers

John

[ron freeman]

Well done John, looks like your the new 'Competitions officer'

Best of luck mate !

[John Wallis]

Excellent I accept!

[Dave Hume]

That's a problem dave... and unless I get a massive increase of motivation to fix, will remain un fixed.

I dont think its to much to live with?

Not an overwhelming problem Steve, but to use your television analogy it's like watching a match on the telly with the goals for one team on one channel and the goals for the opposition on another channel......

[Fingers]

?

I have never seen the HG league and the PG league mixed together in sky wings or the nat XC league for that matter. There always seperated Dave.

This is partly the reason I have lost complete interest in developing this Xc League for the NHPC....... total and utter negativity from start (end of 05) to date, on every possible aspect, there has been remarkable depths of pedantickness reached from many many members and it is only very recently that a few have seen any positives....

Analogy;

Here is a free horse.

"But its the wrong colour!"

No wonder it annoys me, so please forgive me for not pulling any punches when it comes to dealling with spoilt bastards.

[John Wallis]

The negativity stops from today!

Plus I'm gonna start the Riever's pound again everytime there's a few on the hill a pound in the kitty for best distance. If you're lucky you can get a pint and your meal out of it at the end of the day.

I think Mr Stenhouse is going to be chief scorer as he's on the site everyday it doesn't take much work to occasionally post the positions if pilots want that. Plus any comps will be GPS run so we can use our fabulous scoring system put in place by Fingers.

No GPS no enter to the comps as we've got to cater for the majority. Dave I'll buy you one off ebay so you can compete in the hang gliding comp.

Plus we are open to all ideas from members so if there's something you'd like to see done let us know.

[Chris L]

John............Fantastic, what a great idea, bringing back the positivity

[Dave Hume]

?

I have never seen the HG league and the PG league mixed together in sky wings or the nat XC league for that matter. There always seperated Dave.

Good point Steve. I'm just going on the way it's always been in the club. But we will need an extra trophy now so there's one for each........

[ron freeman]

Just a minute Chris, where is the positivity when John Wallis calls the Winter XC League 'Micky mouse flights' !!! I am very positive person all I was trying to do was to achieve a fair system for all whats wrong with that.

I have enjoyed the post of Comps officer but unfortunatly there is not enough room for two.

Happy to be out it.

[AlastairW]

And I thought I was competitive……..!!

First and foremost it is a club comp, nothing more, nothing less. Whatever set of rules are used, be it OLC, open distance, or best cross dresser does not really matter. It is a level playing field for all.

What John had suggested back at the January meeting was a way of simplifying things by using Steves most excellent xc league. This seemed to make perfect sense to me! Alright, we might be loosing out on flights in December not counting to the winter trophy, but so what? There are still the months of January, February and March to count your flights in. You may be pissed if you flew 60k in December, but it is ultimately the same for everyone.

Generally winter flights are "Mickey Mouse"…… I dont think John was being derogatory by saying this. They are short, or are ridge runs. Very little chance for any big distances. (Unless your surname is Rudd….!) So we use OLC for these flights.

In the Summer things are different. Much more chance of big distances, so we use Open Distance, which gives the people who fly long XC flights an edge over those doing ridge runs.

Now there will ALWAYS be exceptions to the above generalisations…….. Ronnies flight at Marske being one, but the rules should not be changed half way.

We all know what the rules are…….. So just go out, fly, and enjoy yourself, and if it is a decent distance put it on the board. At the end of the season, you might be the Champ!!

[ron freeman]

Alastair, you say 'but the rules should not be changed halfway. We all know what the rules are'

We had a set of rules laid down on the 1st of November and they were change in January so we have changed the rules half way !

If OLC is good enough for the winter league it should be good enough for the summer league and as you say OLC is fair for everyone.

Flights from Jan to March will be scored OLC then the same flights will be scored open distance from April !!! this is crazy...

[AlastairW]

The meeting in January decided that the Winter league should be from 1/1 to 31/3.

That was decided on 2nd January.

Those flights to be OLC

Summer league is 1/1 to 30/10, scored using Open distance.

Both are on the XC league table.

Both are dead easy to find.

Why is it crazy?

No one else seems to think so Ronnie...... could you explain why it is crazy? Maybe if we had a reasoned logical explanation, rather than "this is crazy....", then people may be willing to listen

[ron freeman]

Nobody informed me that the winter XC league had not started on the 1st of Nov ! where the rules were all laid out and sorted.

I've never heard of any competition scoring OLC and Open distance for the same flights ! my point being one system for all.

[gary stenhouse]

as the meeting is tommorow night we can discuss further on the olc.

for me the olc 3 turn point is what all the nxl use and maximises any flight been open distance etc. for instance you are flying cross fell but things are not looking to good in thermals but you manage the cafe back then down to the golf balls, however now the thermals are building and things are looking good so you go open xc out the back. i think it would be only fair to claim within the one flight all the distance.

the other could be one of not succeeding in an out and return where you go 50 out and 30 back in i think i 3 turn would be fair to say 80 k would be a well deserved flights.

all of tis is done for you on our web site and is maximising you flight for you at the click of a button.
to do any of the above on the nxl you need to max your flight then convert all your way points from lat long to national gris then manualy upload them before you can even put you igc file in. i can tell you its a lot of work and only gives what our site does at the click of a button..

the min for 3 turn point on the nxl is 15k and this is fair for such a league but given most our site potential something a bit less to encourage otheres would be more approriate, as to encourage people to fly more.

cheers gary only possitive no negative

[John Wallis]

The meeting in January decided that the Winter league should be from 1/1 to 31/3.

That was decided on 2nd January.

Those flights to be OLC

Summer league is 1/1 to 30/10, scored using Open distance.

Both are on the XC league table.

Both are dead easy to find.

Why is it crazy?

No one else seems to think so Ronnie...... could you explain why it is crazy? Maybe if we had a reasoned logical explanation, rather than "this is crazy....", then people may be willing to listen

I wouldn't care Alastair when I proposed this at the January meeting the only person's interest I had on my mind was Ron Freeman's. (I mentioned this to you at the time)

To run the winter league using the old dates was a little complicated but to run it from the beginning of the year onwards made the task simplicity itself. There was little or no work for Ronnie to do and all pilots could see how they stood at the press of a button. I'm amazed at how this thread has flared up into another on line slanging match when my main interest was to help the comps officer and to make things simple.

I apologise to any members who might find threads like this distasteful and childish but it won't happen again. Ronnie has this time stood down and offered me the post of Comps officer. I've had this position many times over the years and really enjoyed it. With Gary as my number 2 we will try and get the comp's scene back on track this year and have some good fun into the bargain.

I would personally like to thank Ron for the work he has done in the past.

JW

[ron freeman]

The Comp scene was on track and I was looking forward to organising this years events.

I do not want any thanks for work done, I did it for my own personal reasons.

I am very unhappy the way things have turn out, especially dragging in my honorary membership.

This tells me that I am well out of it.

[Neil]

Can I bring my Queen record to wednesdays meeting Then??????

[AlastairW]

Nobody informed me that the winter XC league had not started on the 1st of Nov ! where the rules were all laid out and sorted.

I've never heard of any competition scoring OLC and Open distance for the same flights ! my point being one system for all.

It is NOT one competition using different scoring systems for the same flights!!!!

The Winter league uses OLC

The Summer league uses Open distance.

Two comps. Two different scoring systems

Simple really.



John has beaten me to it...... his post sums up what the intention was in having the current format. To make it easier for everyone, including the comps officer!!!

[ron freeman]

Alastair, your winter flights have been be scored OLC points, from today these flight will now score Open distance.

Summer league should start from today if you are going to score them open distance.

[AlastairW]

Summer league should start from today if you are going to score them open distance.

Why?

[Dave Hume]

for me the olc 3 turn point is what all the nxl use

Are you sure Gary? I had a look at the paragliding and hang gliding national XC leagues and they don't appear to use it. They are still talking about multipliers for out and returns and triangles. Similarly a google on OLC comes up with one other club in Wales which appears to use it, a very brief mention of OLC being the DHVs online competition and that's it. It doesn't even sound like the German XC league use it and the OLC (On-Line Competition) is a separate competition altogether.

Just mentioning this for the sake of clarity, I've given up my argument on this and admit defeat, but I still aint buying a GPS.....

Dave

[Fingers]

Yes Dave, you will find "all" the GPS reading software uses the OLC basis for scoring.

Yes the Nat XC league uses the OLC three turn point system for their scoring, they have to manually apply the X factor to every flight. But to get there starting figures they use IGC reading software that uses the OLC at is core.

There is no GPS reading software that takes the data off the GPS and scores it as per the Nat XC rules.

SO

You have on one hand a fully automated system that needs no judges to decide if a flight has been in or out of ridge lift etc etc. And is a true and only zero argument, fair playing field for all.

Or

The other system where part of the above is used then a human is called in to apply X factors and also decide if a flight is in or out of ridge lift. Open to corruption and argument, which I seen last year when a certain chap in the lakes complained about a certain gingers flight and the flight was removed from the league?!!!!

But hats of to your devils advocate Dave, but do be careful I have been known to turn people into newts.

[gary stenhouse]

what i mean by using it?

take one example burkits flight 96.5 open distance yet he still put it in the nxl as 104km what he had done is put in a few turnpoints or other words use the 3 turn point. yes they do use the multipliers etc as you will see my flight i done on pg at xfell was a flat triangle x1.5.

but for the vast majority of people these our not easy to upload or to define unless you spend time learning the software. this i would imagine most people could not be bothered with.

the reason olc is used in europe is as a result of you do not get any multiplieres for or etc as it is to easy so you get it based on turnpoints etc.
something like that as when we were with irwinn last year he was telling us about it.

cheers gary

[Dave Hume]

[quote="Fingers"]Open to corruption and argument....../quote]

Oh for the good old days when people just sent in their co-ords and people trusted them.......

This must of course be because hang glider pilots are universally reknowned as being open and honest folk while paragliders are obviously known to be conniving, sneaky, dishonest types.

[Neil]

I heard that

[Misk]

Scoring by OLC distance (3 tp) is fair enough but OLC scoring is a load of piffle and just does not work in the UK. If you want out and return or triangle multipliers then you need a human to do it as OLC scoring will give you the points even if you land woefully short. This is why the national league use human intervention.

Dave, if you have a cracking flight people will believe you, you will have had the satisfaction of doing it and I'd say you deserve the open distance kms (remember when it was miles?). Make sure you get some photos on your box brownie.......

Scoring open distance or 3 tp - either will do the job for club level and reward folks venturing over the back and away from the Mickey mouse ridge.

It's great to see the NHPC annual traditions of name calling, argument and resignation being kept alive!