Forum Topics disappearing?

[gordie]

I thought I had posted a comment about paramotoring yesturday on a topic about take off areas, however I have searched and can not seem to find it anywhere. Any body got any ideas where the topic has gone or am I losing it and imagining I am posting durring my sleep.

[gary stenhouse]

it is now in the private section where it belongs

[AlastairW]

Gordie, dreaming of posting on the NHPC website...........

That is very very worrying!

You need to see a doctor soon mate!!

[ron freeman]

Gordie, its been removed because they know there in the wrong ! simple as... paramotoring is a great sport but in the wrong hands it can cause a lot of trouble ! ie taking off & landing where the hell you like

[colin keightley]

wrong or not this should be discussed an/or dealt with within our club.

Apologies gordie if one of your posts have been caught up in this.

[gordie]

No worries guys, it crossed my mind after I had posted that it may of moved to the 'holy grail' section. Hope you work it out, off now to find the rest of my marbles.

[gary stenhouse]

if only i was perfect like some

[AlastairW]

I will give you lessons Gary.......

[gary stenhouse]

this is taken from the BHPA website and outlines how you do not need an airfield just a flat field as it is foot launched





Paramotor




See also:
Paramotoring Competitions Page
The latest development in ultra-light aviation, paramotors (also known as Powered Paragliders or PPG) combine the easy flying characteristics of the paraglider with the autonomy and range of powered flight. Paramotors are relatively easy to learn to fly, yet being foot launched they do not need an airfield to operate from. They can be flown from an open, flat field with no need to find a hill site facing into wind or even to wait for the wind to blow. They are quickly and easily rigged and de-rigged, and once dismantled can be put in the boot of a car.

What exactly is a paramotor?
This simplest of all powered aircraft consists of a small motor driving a propeller, worn like a backpack under a paraglider wing and providing thrust to take off, climb and maintain level flight. Once airborne, the paramotor can be used to motor along and watch the world go by beneath you or, if conditions permit, soared in thermal lift to make long cross-country flights. The motor can be stopped and restarted in the air - many types have electric starters - enabling the pilot to adapt his or her flight to the prevailing conditions. With the paramotor unit disconnected before take-off, the wing becomes just another paraglider, offering the freedom and excitement of engineless flight. Many paramotor pilots are paraglider pilots looking for more flexibility in their flying, many others are new to flying but become interested in paramotoring and pure paragliding flight.

Is it expensive?
With a budget of £5,000 or so you'll be able to buy new equipment and cover the cost of a training course. Second-hand equipment will reduce that figure considerably. You'll also need a flying suit, flying boots and a helmet and may consider other equipment as you progress. Running costs are minimal, making paramotoring perhaps the cheapest form of powered flying available.

Learning to fly a paramotor
Courses at BHPA schools take around seven to ten days for would-be paramotor pilots with no paragliding experience, as some time is needed to train them in the safe control of a paraglider canopy. A full course would cover launching the canopy, airspeed control, turning, approaching and landing and controlling the canopy safely on the ground. With these skills under your belt your instructor will then turn to the power unit and train you in assembly and disassembly (for easy transport this, not a major stripdown!), starting, throttle control, fuel mixing, maintenance, torque and thrust effects and certain essential cautions. The two elements will then be put together to teach you powered flight. You will also be instructed in basic principles of flight, meteorology, aviation law (quite severe airspace restrictions apply to paramotor use) and navigation.

For more information on learning to fly, finding a training school, BHPA membership & insurance etc. please see our Learn to Fly section.

[ron freeman]

Airfields have never been mentioned on this thread Gary ? (private section included !) but if you notice at the bottom of this BHPA document aviation law (quite severe airspace restrictions apply to paramotor use) and navigation...

[gary stenhouse]

quote the law ronny as been pilot rated is one of the ppg requirements if you are to fly more than 8k from take off. that is of course that you are bhpa rated if not this does not apply unless you break civil airlaw.

remember you have the right to land in an emergancy anywhere and a ppg is no different to a pg you can land without power and walk away no need for any wheel marks or anything.

so are you say we can no longer fly xc without prior landing permision or take off without written permision to take off.

i have 1000 pages on health and safety and what is reasonable practicable and as i say you outline the risks bring in the control measures and stay in the armchair as getting out of the house is too much risk for some.

[gary stenhouse]

this is what i got back as an answer for flying from lone fiels away from people and houses.
though he is one of the current world and brittish champion i will not use his name to protect the inocent

his words yet could of been mine



Hi Gary,

My understanding is that you can fly from and to anywhere, unless there is a specific bye-law forbidding you to do so.

That's the philosophy I follow anyway;-)

Using commonsense and good manners will go a long way.

Have fun.

[ron freeman]

You know exactly what the issue are here ' taking off without permission' wether 'verbal' or 'written'

Another requirement for ppg is that you get qualified for power so you fully understand airlaw & have insurance when flying power

[Fingers]

'taking off without permission'

Is such a thing obtainable, who has any letter of consent from a land owner? and verbal means little, if the shit hits the fan, so to speek. Permission? no, not from me.

Using commonsense and good manners will go a long way.

Is this not what should be practiced and preached? A field with no other people in it is probably better than a field where there are lots of people around. Regardless of "permission".

[gary stenhouse]

very tricky argument or discusion as when does power become power if you are gliding with power with the engine off are you now paragliding or a ppg.

i could go to the cheviots and get permision on new sites or existing but given how little i fly i dont think it would be worth the hassle.

plus the fact that i would potentialy offer them money for the priveledge then where would that leave the pg comunity.

as ppg pilots regurelaly pay farmers to fly from there land, but if you would prefer me to go up to the cheviots and flash the cash for permision. or i will carry on taken off from unknown places with no one arround to see and just appear like a stealth bomber.

remember it is not law to fly a ppg with a licence or is to fly a pg or hg yet people are flying our sites without any formal training. remember you are here t try and get new business yet you try to push away the very people who have the influance to create it.

not to worry we all beg to differ and all this came about by neil seeing if any one was going to horden, the most remote area of coast with very few public.

common sence is all that is needed and with this you can conquer the world without it well you could waste your life lecturing

cheers gary

[colin keightley]

Having lived on the doorstep of horden i must say it is used more by power flyers than free flyers and I personally know of quite a few who have no licence or training, plain and simple you are not going to be able to stop power flying at horden, all we can do is dis-associate ourselves from power flying as a club, not an individual.

[ron freeman]

All my points are very valid Gary and if you can't see the woods for the trees thats not my problem.

Pilots have lossed everything ! a young girl on a horse he had no permission taking off in a field in the middle of nowhere... Horse threw the girl off and she broke her neck... pilots with no insurance ! and pilots flying like idiots breaking airlaw with no qualifications

My advice is to get qualified (ppg) talk to the land owner first before flying power & stick to NHPC club policy 'no powered flying on club sites'

The choice is yours.

[gary stenhouse]

i guess i bite too easily and should not take the bait, must be these desperate times and holding so many lives in the ballance. when 12 paople rely on you to bring home there daily bread there is a lot more at stake than worrying about non related work issues.

and by the way i started ppg flying pryer to the bhpa offering any formal paramotor training, and as pilot rated they say a simple sign off and exam will be surfice. so in the coming months this will be the case.

[gordie]

and by the way i started ppg flying pryer to the bhpa offering any formal paramotor training, and as pilot rated they say a simple sign off and exam will be surfice. so in the coming months this will be the case.

Where do you get your facts from Gary? I did my BHPA power training and rating in 2000 with Mark Dan at Beyond Extreme, I did not think you were even flying then. And does your comment mean that you are not qulifed and therefore insured to fly power? If that is the case you would not be welcome in Cumbria, especially as you were concidering flying from one of our sites with your motor last time we met.

The point of this whole thread is that to fly a paraglider either under power or free flying, insured/ qualified or not then you need concent off the land owner. We have no right of access anywhere in England and are not included in the right to roam or any other land access acts. So what is the big deal guys just go and ask if you can fly rather then allways trying to esert a right which you do not have, and in the process potentally putting your flying areas at risk.

[colin keightley]

call me ignorant if you like but why do we turn our back on power flying especially when so many pilots in the club fly power or have the ability to fly power, instead of saying p**s off why not have someone on the committee to deal with the power side of things and maybe even get permmission for some power sites.

[gary stenhouse]

it does make sence as hg pg ppg and hgp all are covered under the bhpa cylibus. so why alienate part of the sport under the same umbrella and governing body. as it does not matter what you say on this forum there is nothing stoping anyone buying one and flying one without any training.

we have this happening all over the country and on our sites where not everyone is bhpa trained or carry the legal requirement for training.

ppg is very different from pg as you dont need a hill to start but you do need decent access, and this is not always easy to find just like pg and hg. this is why you find somewhere where no one sees you and no one heres you and your off on your journeys, true free flying.

i mean we all do things in the best interests like training microlights pilots without a licence on an airfield and we know where that can get you, in the deep with the caa.

why i guess ppg is so free as we are not as closely regulated

but like i said above i have got insurance through sports cover direct and will have the bhpa in the coming months when i have done the exam.

cheers gary

[Fingers]

Apparently there are NO legal requirements, at all, to fly a PPG PG PHG HG or any other foot launched craft! NO legal requirements to start a school teaching these activities either. I could start a school in the same way I could start a hairdresser's and start cutting hair.

Interesting stuff.

[AlastairW]

Can I suggest you check the Sportsguard insurance policy very carefully Gary.

I have looked at this before, and it does NOT include third party liability insurance for "motorised units"

[gary stenhouse]

another reason to read the print and not asume cover,
still how many people are covered to cycle walk run fly a kite snow ski etc etc and can say they are fully covered for third party.

not many i am sure you have to way up the theoretical risk versus cover, does the ministry of defance have third party for low level flying and scaring a horse that bolts?

the owner of the horse is required to have this, you could go on to the point of exaustion and would never leave the house

still the sun is shining and life is good so why complicate more than you have too.

[ron freeman]

Colin, nobody is turning there backs on ppg's or telling them too p..s. off ! Hordon is a club site so members should abide by club rules.

At the moment the club has only 4 members who are qualified to fly powered, they have also organised themselves take off sites, so I can't see a problem at the moment.

I teach powered hanggliding with two training areas + written permission from the land owner & BHPA insurance. No insurance no flying at school sites.

If the Club wish to organise powered flying they will also have to make sure everyone is qualified with insurance which brings us back to the start of this thread...

Fingers...

So would you have no worries sending a members of your family to a non professional flying school with no experienced instructors, training standards, equipment checks, insurance & probably poor training sites.

I don't think so.. I hope !

[gary stenhouse]

and where do those hg use horden or is there different rules for hg and freinds?

and have you always used sites where you have had full written permision?

who do we give a bottle too at horden?
they have neither give us permision or said we can not fly there, as for a council to grant permision is also taken responsability so i would love to know where you have getting written permision to fly your hg as i will make my business to get permision there as well.

there are 3 ppg pilots using horden without training and without bhpa insurance and live localy to the site.

so the answere is if you fly a paramotor do not admit to being a member of any club and you will be fine.

untill we pay or own the rights to a site we can not stop or make individuals pay to do so, as we discovered at the last club meeting.

even if we have a policy for full paid up bhpa members to fly are sites it will be ny on imposible to stop them doing so.

i am all for everyone been fully trained and qualified but with ppg you are normaly flying alone and are much less likely to have mid airs or be flying next to others. so is in general much safer than pg that is if you are allready pilot rated pg pilot with nearly 500 hours flying accross 4 countrys.

cheers gary

[gary stenhouse]

the xc league is a great tool so i now now where to seek permision and i must say the caravan park is a nice place but not the most appropriate. give the noise and the fact there is likely hood of spectators. but as you have got full written permision i will give them a buzz in the next few days as i am surei have a contact there.

the wonder of google earth and gps trace

[ron freeman]

I don't use this site for the school Gary... but I do have a verbal agreement with the Golden sands caravan park owner, very nice helpful bloke.

Looks like it starting to sink in if your going to ask him to fly there ! make sure you tell him your not qualified and have no insurance, good luck !

Last post for me on this subject, I'm exhausted

[gary stenhouse]

How the post should have went via a PM

Did you manage to get your training or should I say PPG exam done or do you need my help?
As I remember when you went to the BHPA in reference to power training and being certified.
As I remember they were happy for you to do a safe take off and landing as you had been flying for more than a year on power. And if memory serves me right an exam very similar to what you did for paragliding and hangliding.

This could and should have been the way as we are here to promote flying not to try and stop it, to encourage training and to help fellow pilots not permanently condemn them.

There is ways and means of helping people and encouraging them down the right path, but attacking them will only make people more determined to rebel.

We are all pilots and we all want to keep free flying free!

Cheers Gary

last post happy flying as it looks good the coming days

[Neil]

have i missed something
you cant go wrong if your nice to the people you meet while your out and about. Very unusual to meet someone who has a problem with free flying or power. they all want to know were to learn. who should we recommend to these people? If we upset anyone the internet is a sharp tool. this thread one`s again is a wind up with very little positive energy. I am inspired to sit an exam. but only to stem the flow of BS.