changes to the xc league and scoring for prizes

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:25 am

After looking at how some of the other clubs deal with their XC leagues then i think it is time that to win individual pg or hg trophies, this should be done on Northumbrian sites and crossfell. However i do think for overall XC champion Hg Pg should be with the most OLC three turn point score that is used across all the leagues. This i think then gives those who only ever fly Northumbrian sites a fair chance of taking a prize.
This i think should be the agenda for Aprils meeting and the handing out of the winter trophies?
I know people do think that 3 turn point and triangles is much easier to score, but in reality the most you can get is 30 to 40km on these flights yet open xc is often easier depending on where you are flying.

Cheers Gary

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:36 pm

How about a max of 2 flights per hill and 1 flight per day on the coast?

It will make it more difficult for people to see whee they are in the league and will give someone a headache at the end of the year to sort out. I'm not sure what, if any filters can be applied to Leonardo?

Do think its a good idea though and will widen things up and maybe produce some more interest in flying in Northumberland. Personally I will just go where the flying is best.

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:02 pm

sounds a good idea as anything to make things a bit more difficult.

like you say i will stillbe always heading for the site will give the best conditions for any given day. though i think the habitual skivers will have a harder time as they are unlikely be flying northumbrian flights. saying that for weekends i am 2nd in the nxl for weekend flying so quite a pleasing result.

anyhow it is good to get so many replies to move the club forward to make a fairer system for all to take part

cheers gary

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:54 am

yes, overwhelming enthusiasm.
Maybe if we banned all the tiop 5 from the previous years results as well we might get a few more interested

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:14 pm

After looking at how some of the other clubs deal with their XC leagues then i think it is time that to win individual pg or hg trophies, this should be done on Northumbrian sites and crossfell

You will probably have less entries than you have now if you make it Cheviots only. Anytime the conditions are light enough for paragliding the sea breeze comes in and kills things. What's the point of going to crappy little sites when there so much better on offer. Fair enough to train in the Cheviots then once you've got your licence get yersell off to North Yorks the Dales or the Lakes..................

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:04 pm

i think with crossfell then there is a chance of some pretty big flights though i think the cheviots will be tuff to do any realy big ones. however i do plan to break the british record from moneylays or a nnw nne site in the top off the cheviots. this will take me right the way through the cheviots through the penines etc, mind i must remember to switch of the engine.

i suppose the truth is most of the cross country pilots are normaly in my van anyhow.

i think i was just trying to stop pilots who do not do any flying on our sites and win out trophies does not seem right

cheers gary

Jim Bittlestone · Post by **Jim Bittlestone** » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:05 pm

I'm not sure why this is being pushed??

Just because other clubs do this doesn't mean we should follow.
They have sites where folk regularly fly 50k, 100k. We don't.

Why would forcing folk to fly our sites make anything fairer?

There are many variables to getting decent flights on the board, it will never be totally fair per se. Time, finances, better equipment, luck, all give folk with a similar skill level an advantage, this is accepted.
Everyones circumstances are different.

If someone is prepared to travel to Long Mynd, Wether Fell etc to make the most of the day and are rewarded with a decent flight, good for them.
These are places where potentially you can fly further, have more time in the air, learn more, get more confidence, have more fun.
That is moving forward.
Confining club members to our sites is in my view a backward step.
I find it difficult to get enthusiastic about that.

I can't make the meeting.

ron freeman · Post by **ron freeman** » Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:13 pm

Great reply Jim ! one other option to the members... any XC flights made on Club sites receive double points !

this will make all xc members think hard about where to fly...

Personally XC flying is not all about big distances its about getting the best flying out of the days conditions.

A twenty mile flight can be much harder than a 100 mile flight if the conditions are not so good but the points awarded don't allow for this

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:48 pm

Oh there is life out there!
People do love to moan and be negative don't they?
Pilots trog off to places like the Mynd, North Yorks and the Dales because they think that's the only place to get big flights.
Very few people, even fewer from other areas come and fly the Cheviots, so how do you know for sure it won't happen there. If we get a few decent flights in then better pilots will come looking and things might happen.
Look at XFell, 2 reasonable flights early season from unknown numpties and the following weekend, top pilots start to arrive from other areas.
You never know what will happen until we start trying.
Gary's idea was aimed at leveling the playing field and encouraging flights from our own sites for ONE trophy, I think there's about thirty million others to travel the world to get.
Anyway Wallace, if you ain't flying, you ain't winning so stop whinging or get out there and prove us wrong!

I'll get him back in the air yet!

Jim Bittlestone · Post by **Jim Bittlestone** » Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:53 pm

Brian, I suggest that you actually read Garys post at the top of this thread.
He does not suggest nhpc sites for one trophy, he suggests it for all individual hg and pg trophies. You are misleading club members to say otherwise.

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:33 pm

no i still think there is something in the flying northumbrian sites for some of the trophies after all this is why you should be joining the nhpc is to support it a little here and there.

i have no intentions of flying just nhpc sites though i will when i think the conditions are right to do so. i fly as much to be in the air as i do for distance, and will strive to go bigger and bigger.

on the nhpc site thing dave thomson i beleive is moving to kelso and is planing on joining the nhpc, so i think that may well see more cross countries done in the cheviots.

i know for one my flying is not based on wining trophies as if it had been i would of stayed on my mentor 1-2 then it would of been possible to get every trophy.

the way i see it there is only 4-5 members who regulaly fly outside of northumberland so to bring in the boundaries would not be that much of a problem.

remember there is 100 pounds for a flight of 50k or more for a flight out of the cheviots and yet last year it was not taken.

now i am using lightweight kit i do think i will start hike and fly in sites within the cheviot area and go for it?

cheers gary

Post by **colin keightley** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:30 am

Not that im bothered I agree with gary, keep the overall champion flying any site and the rest make club sites, there are a lot of people who either cant afford to travel or dont want to. Saying that some have more than others and different gear and all that crap Jim there are plenty of like minded people in the National XC league which I think is more appropriate for those sorts of people. This is supposed to be club orientated competition.

Like i said im not perticularly bothered as im not into xc its just my view,

So when we getting an ACRO trophy

ron freeman · Post by **ron freeman** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:23 am

Colin, we are a registered club to the BHPA therefore we should be encouraging our members and help them in anyway towards taking part in this event if they wish.

Club competitions should be organised & promoted to the level of the National XC league.

It does not need to be such a big jump from club level to National level as long as the club promotes & organise in the right way.

Not many know this but the NHPC won the national HG club championships 2 times in a row !

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:37 am

is that like how i paid the £10.00 of my own money so members could put on their flights to the national xc league?

http://www.xcleague.com/xc/leagues/view-1.html?vx=30

http://www.xcleague.com/xc/leagues/view-1.html?vx=40

http://www.xcleague.com/xc/leagues/view-9.html

http://www.xcleague.com/xc/leagues/view-9.html?vx=40

http://www.xcleague.com/xc/leagues/view-9.html
cheers gary

ron freeman · Post by **ron freeman** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:43 am

Gary, my comments are refering to Colin post.

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:12 am

i am happy whatever way we go but i do think like ronny said that any flight done out of the cheviots is worth double. as it is true that some sites around the country are so much easier than are sites. though i am starting to think it is about percentages and gagle flying to help you along the way. speaking with the penine crew they all are on radio togeather and try and climb tageather, then once at base they leave and fan out to give the best chance of a climb. then they gaggle upagain. the right day in the cheviots if we make an effort and comit to the badlands will produce a big one.

cheers gary

Jim Bittlestone · Post by **Jim Bittlestone** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:32 am

Gary, six of last years top ten pg pilots, (according to the xc league scores for 2010 and national xc league 2010) including our top two pilots, (Ali and Tony) will not be at the April meeting and therefore will have no say in these radical changes.
Since you are so concerned about fairness, it may be considered more fair to allow those pilots an opinion at a meeting?
Your comment about only 4 or 5 pilots flying sites outside of the county suggests they are not being considered here. I would suggest at the very least least Ali, Tony, Chris, Jan, Paul, Kay and myself regularly fly outside of the county, probably more. I suggest these people travel to the best site on the day and would not change this just because you changed the xc rules.
So just who are you being fairer to?
I, for one am not interested in any competition which has some of the best pilots in the club excluded by the fact that they dont fly exclusively nhpc sites.
What a hollow victory that would be.
I can't think why anyone would want the best pilots out of the picture?

Post by **colin keightley** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:32 pm

ron freeman wrote:Gary, my comments are refering to Colin post.

I think you have miss understood me ron.

What I am saying is maybe the National XC league is more suitable for those wanting to travel all over the country.

And our league more suitable for those wishing to fly club sites.

Im not saying discourage anyone.

Post by **colin keightley** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:40 pm

Jim Bittlestone wrote:Gary, six of last years top ten pg pilots, (according to the xc league scores for 2010 and national xc league 2010) including our top two pilots, (Ali and Tony) will not be at the April meeting and therefore will have no say in these radical changes.
Since you are so concerned about fairness, it may be considered more fair to allow those pilots an opinion at a meeting?
Your comment about only 4 or 5 pilots flying sites outside of the county suggests they are not being considered here. I would suggest at the very least least Ali, Tony, Chris, Jan, Paul, Kay and myself regularly fly outside of the county, probably more. I suggest these people travel to the best site on the day and would not change this just because you changed the xc rules.
So just who are you being fairer to?
I, for one am not interested in any competition which has some of the best pilots in the club excluded by the fact that they dont fly exclusively nhpc sites.
What a hollow victory that would be.
I can't think why anyone would want the best pilots out of the picture?

There would still be the overall trophy up for grabs Jim.

With the exception of last year the overall champion has been the pg champion for quite a few years. At least this way we have the oportunity for 2 different pilots to get each trophy instead of the same one taking both. Which at the moment with the lack of hanglider flights is highly likely.

Maybe it would be an idea to throw some ideas about at the meeting and actually make a decision on those ideas at a slightly later date. But we cant just put it off because some pilots cant make it and just because a pilot is in the top 5 doesnt give him any more rights than a CP who joined last week wether it affects him more or not.

Chris L · Post by **Chris L** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:27 pm

Our sites are not always the most reliable or best for XC (except maybe X-Fell) so I think a lot of us go exploring elsewhere. For starting out and soaring (eg evening forays to East Hill) they can be good, but with a descent forecast and free weekend I'd say the more experienced pilots head elsewhere; so for the sake of fairness all XC flights should be included and given equal weighting on our XC league irrespective of where the flight is.
I do also think there is far to much bias towards achieving distances.
The quality of a flight should be based on other things such as exploring new areas, flying over new terrain, taking off from new places, flying in different conditions, flying in different ways Acro, speedflying, tandem etc etc Doing what Chris Scammell talked about - walking too and flying over Scafell etc Maybe we should award a trophy for the most adventurous flyers instead of just basing everything on distance. Flying is so much more than that (It reminds me of skydiving when everything was based on competition and how many points/formations you could turn in freefall - god it got boring after doing that year in year out then people started to fly in wingsuits and head down and jumping off cliffs and suddenly it was exciting & fun again)
We become better pilots by doing these things so maybe by incentivising our members to fly club sites is not a good thing
Like Jim has said many of our pilots travel all over to fly so why penalise those who put in a good flight elsewhere

Post by **colin keightley** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:38 pm

We arnt saying penalise we are saying why should all the trophies go to the same person. For the last few years winning the summer pg trophy has guaranteed you the overall trophy aswell. Because the rules for each of these trophies are very similar. The trophies need there boundaries further apart in order to get a good spred instead of the same person coming away with most of the trophies.

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:30 pm

why not invite richard westgate as a club member so he can then definately winn all the trophies?

for one tony bradley is no longer a club member 2 ali said he is not bothered.

last year the overall trophy was given to someone who never flew one club site last year, now forgive me for being blunt but i just dont think this is right. why be in a club only to only fly others sites to try and winn are clubs trophies.

any way given the support that we ever have at the club meetings then we would be waiting a long time to get decisions made as 70% of members never turn up.

for one i still by far fly the most hours in the club and travell probably the most distance to fly, so if anyone could be penalised then it would be me.

i just think that it would be good to see more dedicated pilots on are sites when there is a vey good prospect of real xc. as the more good pilots on the hill may just get are club some credibility.

there is only one way i compare any other pilot and hat is how they fly on the day on the same site on the same day.

at last though we have some discusion as frankly the club is lifeless and yet we are the most nomadic pilots anywhere.

see you out there tomorrow

cheers gary

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:44 pm

I think we should include international flights as well.
How about a skivers trophy for mid week flights?

Double the points score if you travel over 100 miles,,,,,,,,by road
Treble them if you travel on your own!
PS not sure Ali is bothered and I don't think Tony is joining this year.

Jim Bittlestone · Post by **Jim Bittlestone** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:33 pm

If its true that you only want more pilots to fly nhpc sites, why not get a trophy made for Cheviot XC flights?
This may be a better way to acheive this without the need to chase folk out of the club?
Oh and if I'm next for the Tony Bradley treatment, don't bother, just ask, I'll gladly leave. That's three of us out of the picture.
Enjoy your trophies boys, you've earnt them.

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:10 pm

you don't know how wrong you are jim, if you realy think we need to change the rules for others to win then how wrong you are. this was not done to exclude top pilots with good attitude to others. strange why a surgestion for something has caused people to think that it is a way to try and change the rules to make it easier to win.

there is allready the xfell trophy the longest flight from a northumbrian site so we do allready have didicated tropies for northumberland.

its easy to shout the odds but to support the club like beings sites officers club memberships and a host of other jobs has proved very little commitment.

i have nothing to prove to anyone as i fly for myself and no one else as my dedication to the sport has been nothing short of inspirational and given life to pilots who could never of continued to fly. i used to be a lown ranger in other sports though i have opened the doors in this sport for others to jump in my van. in ktesurfing i traveled just as many miles if not more and never had others in my car.

this is a sport best shared with others and to be a lown ranger is fine but thats your choice.

still spit your dummy out like a child, thats your choice

cheers gary

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:02 pm

The trophies are for Club competition not National competition. Gary is just trying to encourage as many people as possible to try their hand and not be put off by egocentrics. If you have a big ego and high aspirations go win the nat xc league and enter your flights for trophies in the big clubs. If you just enjoy flying and challenges no matter how small support the chairman and the club. Strive to get more people involved, help others, volunteer to do jobs which help the club, offer club members lifts, enter your flights as club flights on the nat xc league, be part of the club, be proud of it, turn up at meetings and do something positive. Don't just moan and criticise someone who is trying to do everything for the club and it's members.

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:11 pm

From a totally outside view, there's some very strange attitudes as to what is about to be in a club. Its your local club you have to be in it like it or not, that's just the proper way. Yes join other clubs as well if you want but you cannot defect, this is a very sad state of affairs.

If you don't like the way things are run then you stand up to be counted when the jobs are renewed at the end of the year, or you support the people YOU voted in.

Of course its right that the local sites are used for the comps, its the NHPC not the national league.

ron freeman · Post by **ron freeman** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:24 pm

Right on the nail Steve ! & I totaly agree you should decide which club you want to compete with and go for it ! plus everyone who does an XC support & stick in the National XC league.

I'm still up for double points for Xc's in the Cheviots

Post by **gary stenhouse** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:09 pm

hey up steve that book your readingbis realy working well with very diplomatic speech well said.

defecting is never the answer as what gain is there in leaving you were not bothered about the trophies in the first place?

cheers gary

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:20 pm

Double points for Cheviot XCs what a hollow incentive. "The club XC champion is Mr X he has flown 1/2 the distance of everyone else and he is the winner".......... Unbelievable....

Jim spot on

I, for one am not interested in any competition which has some of the best pilots in the club excluded by the fact that they dont fly exclusively nhpc sites.
What a hollow victory that would be.

NHPC Private and Public Forum

changes to the xc league and scoring for prizes

changes to the xc league and scoring for prizes

Great reply Jim

Colin

Gary

Re: Gary

Nice one !