The Guide Abroad?

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:13 am

It would seem the honey moon is over before I have had a chance to get a real look at the beaver!!

100 euros per day per man min from Erwin in Annecy!! eek

250 euros per 2 people per day in Chamoney!!! eeeek!!

It would seem the money has moved in and the guys with the knowlage have moved up. Or pretending to at least as far as the latest report form Annecy and Erwins setup.

So what do us peasants do when wanting that trip abroad now?

Get as much knowlage as pos and wing it?

Go for the none English French man and follow him?

Or

As I suspect, find the not so known guides who just love to fly?

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:15 pm

Is this guiding lark a paragliding thing? How long has it been going on? Or is it just something in Vogue at the moment?

The reason I ask is we've been going to the alps hang gliding (French and Austrian) for a canny few years and we've never bothered with such things. I'm certainly not saying it's something to be frowned upon as knowledge is all. But we always found enough info from the locals and other British/visiting pilots who knew the area. We did some home work before we went and picked up the rest when we were there.

Plus with all the info on the Internet...............

Seems a canny way to make money though if people are prepared to pay. Think I might start classes on the Cross Fell range

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:42 am

John Wallis wrote:Is this guiding lark a paragliding thing? How long has it been going on? Or is it just something in Vogue at the moment?

The reason I ask is we've been going to the alps hang gliding (French and Austrian) for a canny few years and we've never bothered with such things. I'm certainly not saying it's something to be frowned upon as knowledge is all. But we always found enough info from the locals and other British/visiting pilots who knew the area. We did some home work before we went and picked up the rest when we were there.

Plus with all the info on the Internet...............

Seems a canny way to make money though if people are prepared to pay. Think I might start classes on the Cross Fell range

I Dont know about all that John.

But for my personal experience of it, for one Gary might not be here if it weren't for a guide, we would not have known the number for the chopper nor even known there was a chopper! We would have struggled to call an ambulance!!! (talk about Geordie in the Antarctic.... very silly now thinking about it.)

After getting a couple of briefings it becomes very very clear that unless you live and fly very regularly out there you know very very little about flying alpine.

Yes you could go without a guide but I would guarantee you would get more flying and more distance with one. More important more relaxed and enjoyable, as someone else is watching the weather conditions,... EG there could be dangerous towering CU's in one valley but it could be very safe to fly in a valley next to it?!!!! Quote Erwin and Gareth.

100 euros a day forces you to go it alone and I guess it might be that way if there is no cheeper options. But we payed 50 euros per day and it was well worth it.

But I guess if you plan it right and make sure your properly provisioned then I guess going it alone could be OK. We went as though it was a trip to East hill, although Gary will tell you "he" was properly provissioned with his dried fruit n nuts! Oh and I think he might have bought a map on day 2.

milleboy · Post by **milleboy** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:25 am

At the risk of been flamed for this, how much do you get paid for a days work?
The figure for chamonix guides are both friends of mine, Think I'm correct in saying the 250 euro is for up to 3 pilots. One of the guide has to take a day off from commercial tandem duties to guide. That's £170 per day for 3.
Might sound a lot, but if they work 5 days per week all year it's £40k per annun. Sound a lot, but due to weather they don't work anything like that......... Prob £20k per year.

Just cos they guide for a living doesn't mean they don't have bills to pay/kids to feed etc just like everybody else!

Sorry........

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:28 am

Seems a canny way to make money though if people are prepared to pay. Think I might start classes on the Cross Fell range

Actually John there are already Guides for walking in the hills in the form of Mountain Leaders, Mountain Instructors etc,

However, while I'm on the point, these qualifications, and all the way to Alpine Guide, are very difficult to achieve, as are the Alpine Ski Guide qualifications. No one in their right mind would venture out, wishing to be guided, with someone without these qualifications. And, no one would be allowed to mascaraed as a guide without these qualifications. Such guides are also very carefully monitored by their governing body to ensure they are operating safely and that their fees are within reason. Certainly, even for individual rates the costs are not what is being suggested here for paragliding.
As I've mentioned before regarding paragliding guiding , it's about time the sport became a lot more thorough in it's administration on an international basis. The BHPA is working very hard in Britain, but it's so easy to escape the rules and regulations of the BHPA by moving abroad.

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:20 pm

milleboy wrote:At the risk of been flamed for this, how much do you get paid for a days work?
The figure for chamonix guides are both friends of mine, Think I'm correct in saying the 250 euro is for up to 3 pilots. One of the guide has to take a day off from commercial tandem duties to guide. That's £170 per day for 3.
Might sound a lot, but if they work 5 days per week all year it's £40k per annun. Sound a lot, but due to weather they don't work anything like that......... Prob £20k per year.

Just cos they guide for a living doesn't mean they don't have bills to pay/kids to feed etc just like everybody else!

Sorry........

I dont blame them at all...

People are coming from all over the world and bringing many sheckles with them.

I am pointing out that £70 per day is quite a lot in my opinion for what in certain instances can turn into nothing more than a punt around. I know Chris Little came home from Anney with a nasty taste in his mouth. Last year he paid no more than 50 euros and on one day because to was not much cop only 20 or something!!! he goes this year and for him and Jan it was 400 euros for 2 days, for nothing more than a punt around the Lake.!!!! The guide also flew off and left him!!! one guy was aparently told to take a therm up and back from the TO then land in Dussard!!!!!

This sounds more like people taking the piss to me....

A service based business is only as good as the smiles on your clients faces. If your clients are going away feeling disgruntled your not going to have a business for long. Chris recomended Erwin to us based on his experiance last year to which you could not have seen a happier man. This year? well I guess we must have seen the first signs of change and there are many other guide options out there to choise from.

I guess it must come from the cheep 4 day long weekend mind set.

Air fair = £70
Digs = £50
car hire = £25 each (4 sharing)
Drink = yes
Food = yes
Guiding = £270 for 4 days!!!

Turns a really cheep trip £150 - £200 into a not very cheap 4 day trip at all £500.

I will be interested to hear John Wallis's rates for his "Geordie of the Alps tours"

milleboy · Post by **milleboy** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:24 pm

Steve, I was only commenting on the prices. Not wether the annecy guide offered good value for that service......... This is a different thing altogether, and not made clear in your original post!

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:48 pm

Well this is the very thing, value for services tendered. If customer leaves with a big smile on their face then there must have been value for service, regardless on what money has changed hands. If your happy then the guide has done a very good job and will be recomended.

To be fair to all guides the weather is totaly out there hands, and yes I did start to get quite specific. So will get even more specific, personaly on our trip to annecy.

Day 1 - Brilliant intro into the Alps. Very happy but a little shocked at the price as we had been told a different price before leaving home. But we settled on a deal for the 4 days.

Day 2 - Fantastic!!! Total satisfaction even though Neil retreeved us and we used our own car.... did not care a jot! BRILLIANT

Day 3 - 20 mins in the air and Gaz decides hes had enough of living.!!! END OF DAY and guiding.

Time to pay up.

NO refund at all for anyone bare in mind day 4 was to be inc.... I thought that at least Gaz might get a small gesture of goodwill! after all he had a slightly bad day. Also a promise to pick up Gaz's wife from the Airport broken... I left with a very bad taste in the mouth.

brian day · Post by **brian day** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:55 pm

Might sound a lot, but if they work 5 days per week all year it's £40k per annun. Sound a lot, but due to weather they don't work anything like that......... Prob £20k per year.

There are very few, if any, people that manage to earn a descent living working in the outdoor sports industry. Having been there, done it and got several teeshirts, I soon became used to scraping by, because I loved doing what I was doing! It must be considered that part of the wage must be where you are living and what you are doing.
If these guys are making a descent wage, then good for them, I'm sure there are people out there that can afford to, and will, pay the going rate.
There was one pearl of hope in the general outdoor industry and that was to work for an Education Authority, but the bubble burst with the Poole disaster, now it's all paper work and risk assessment. I'm sure a time will come, when, say an American being guided, has a mishap and a lawyer (sorry Alistair) gets his hands on the case, and.....what risk assessments,,,,,what insurance,,,,,,what qualifications?????
Make your coin while the sun shines boys,,,,but the bubble will burst,,,and it will burst all the quicker when you start attracting the big money.

John Wallis · Post by **John Wallis** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:19 pm

I will be interested to hear John Wallis's rates for his "Geordie of the Alps tours"

Well Steve having never used a guide and doubt I ever will this is how we did it on our many hang gliding holidays.

On our many club trips to Lachens in the southern Alps we found most of our info from others that had all ready been there. Plus when we arrived for the first time we knew there would be other experienced Brits around to help. The French German and Dutch were always very helpful with their information. The site took south east west and north. There were ridge runs and milk runs for most take offs. As for telephone numbers the Hang gliding school at the south east landing field (Now paragliding school) had a big information board with all emergency numbers plus loads of site info in all the euro lingos. So no guide needed there.

Also St Andre Les Alps is just up the road and in the words of Mark Dale " Take off on your PG and you will have done your SIV in about 15 min's"

Rutherford and I had 2 weeks in Kitzbhuel flying the famous 'Hannenkam' All we did was contact the Kitzbhuel Hang gliding club and their "President" Sepp Hillibrand sent us all the info out about the mountain and the area. We had to join the club when we got there and pay President hillibrand some Austrian Shillings. The funny thing was everyone we asked seemed to be Sepp Hillibrand and were quite keen to take our money (Thieving Austrians) The holiday was brilliant and once the tickets were bought for the gondala the gliders were loaded and we were flying. We spent most of that holiday flying with Graeme Geary and Noel Whittal (Rob's dad) All the info we needed from club people and no guide needed there.

A club holiday at Larange where there was plenty of pilots who had already been to give us info another great place to visit. No guide needed there.

Annecy

We'd never heard of the Forclaz and it's ramp before Rob Turner made all the usual enquiries. Rob researched the area on our behalf the first time we went and it was a great holiday. One of my favorite sites when there was a place called the Cret du Chattion. The spelling is probably way off but it was like a massive Hepburn Wood with a lovely grass top. I'm sure there were great views of Mt Blance from there. I wonder if they still fly it?

I could go on and on but the point I'm making is you can get info from other clubs before you go and visit, and once there talk to the locals especially in the camp site after a few jars the stories of great flying feats are great to listen too.

Just my opinion and how we've always done it. I don't have any problem with people paying guides if that's how they prefer to do it.

milleboy · Post by **milleboy** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:28 am

It's morning and I'm a bit confused as usual....

Steve, is the post about you abjecting to paying 70euros a day for guiding, or about the Annecy guides been crap?

If it's the latter, why bring my Chamonix friends into it, since no one on this forum has used them.......................

As for the statement "If customer leaves with a big smile on their face then there must have been value for service, regardless on what money has changed hands." Surely they are linked? I dread to think what sort of extras you'd expect for 1000euro per day.....

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:47 am

milleboy wrote:It's morning and I'm a bit confused as usual....

Steve, is the post about you abjecting to paying 70euros a day for guiding, or about the Annecy guides been crap?

If it's the latter, why bring my Chamonix friends into it, since no one on this forum has used them.......................

As for the statement "If customer leaves with a big smile on their face then there must have been value for service, regardless on what money has changed hands." Surely they are linked? I dread to think what sort of extras you'd expect for 1000euro per day.....

Neither Steve, I was expressing my thoughts. Its not just as black and white as CRAP or GOOD. I dont know you friends and I am not getting personal about them Steve.

I mention the Chamonix guides as Chris mentioned they where 250 euros per day per 2 persons, if its 3 persons then I got Chris wrong.

Even so, which ever way I look at either the Chamonix Guides or Erwin. It is way too much money for me personaly. You might think the prices are very reasonable?

Brian made a very valid point and I have to agree. But there will be other guides to chose from that are just starting up who are not charging big money.

milleboy · Post by **milleboy** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:16 am

Think we'll just have to disagree!

I, personally, cannot imaging looking after 3 or 4 pilots, who may or may not be a total liability, transporting them around the valley, looking after them from 10 to 6 or 7, for less then £175!
I guide my friends for free, but total strangers.....................

In fact, I would worry about anybody who would do it for less!

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:39 am

Steve there is nothing to agree or disagree with.

Personally it is too much money for me.